Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#861

Post by fennecfoxy » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 8:56 AM UTC

K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Eh, I think shame as a societal tool is outmoded anyway. Sure, it can be used by our monkey brains to enforce "the greater good" as judged by our peers, but in some countries "the greater good" is throwing gay men off buildings.

The US is filled with so many contrasting opinions that it's a survival skill to be able to ignore people trying to induce feelings of "shame". Whether you're a liberal who doesn't want to feel shameful that you're a feminist, or gay, or want healthcare for everyone, or a republican who doesn't want to feel shameful that you're against gay and trans people existing, want to ban abortion, throw the economy to the war machine etc.

I don't think your argument extends at all to a hard drugs problem, though. As a gay man who has learnt to ignore the "shame" of being gay and to ignore the (surprisingly still high number of) people that shoot me disgusted looks if I dare to hold a man's hand in public, I'm not also going to suddenly _not_ feel shameful if I get into hard drugs.

Also, I don't think you understand hard drugs at all. Pretty sure "shame" isn't even a blip on the radar of the awareness of the hard drug user, across all cultures and all of history, such drugs have been so potent that the addicted can only focus on the next fix; things like shame and morality sink into the background as effects of withdrawal from the drug take hold.

For example, China has a strong, stroooong culture of shame and societal shaming, but they still had that trouble with Opium, by your logic enough shame would've stamped that out immediately. People on those drugs don't work like people not on those drugs.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#862

Post by yafbum » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 8:57 AM UTC

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #859

yafbum wrote: post #849

I feel like when I traveled to Asia, I didn't see any of that. I don't think it's because of better individual self-control (plenty of other addictions, like gambling, alcohol or smoking). But isn't there like death penalty for drug traffickers there? Is that the only effective deterrent? Harsh perhaps, but if we look at outcomes, the current situation kills a lot of people and wastes a lot of lives. I can see how so…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rat... Only if we also bring in the death penalty for people who sell fried food, burn stuff, have infectious diseases and drive cars

I have yet to see someone be repeatedly brought back to life by an emergency worker due to a sudden French fries overdose, or live out on the streets because they just can't stop buying churros and spacing out on them.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#863

Post by fennecfoxy » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 8:58 AM UTC

taxyz wrote: post #853

godelski wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible example. Most people do not want to murder, even when very angry. You don't need laws to make people not murder. The laws are for what to do when people do. No matter how universal an attribute is it'll never be 100%. Besides, you'll notice the murder rate is highly localized and associated with economic opportunities. You know why talking about gay people _is_ a good example? Because you probably…

You’re either too young to remember or creating a non-existent history of what life was like before same-sex marriage was legalized. This is not a comment on anything to do with gay rights but more just a matter of fact: pre-Obergefell life was VERY similar to life today. Gay people still lived together, still went on dates, and held hands. They weren’t run out of town for being gay. There wasn’t rampant homophobia e…

Except even now I still get harassed for holding a guy's hand. I still look over my shoulder.

Because people will give you disgusted looks when lots of other people are around, maybe they'll be brave enough to attack you. But when it's just them and their mates around, they _will_ attack you.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#864

Post by mptest » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:01 AM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #676

seattle_spring wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're claiming that a non-trivial part of Portland's homeless crisis is caused by ex-Microsoft employees becoming addicted to meth?

I can tell you there’s at least one of them. From what I understand his mother drives down from Seattle, and tries to bring him food with varying levels of success.

Well that anecdote is veeeery helpful from a sociological perspective. Thanks for that insight.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#865

Post by mptest » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:16 AM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #330

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

The most heavily abused drugs are the legal ones. That is the primary argument against legalization / decriminalization. MJ legalization has led to a 20% increase in use already. It's a very good argument. The only argument I have for legalization is the current situation we have with Mexico (and Guatemala, etc). Our inability to not control/treat drug addiction has led to a fundamentally destabilized country in a de…

>Mj legalization has led to increased use already

Has it also reduced the consumption of any other substances? I wonder what % replaced a different habit.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#866

Post by trabant00 » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

I would say more societal peer pressure than shame, but I don't want to argue semantics. I think that yeah, some of that went away, but another wave in another form is being created right now. Take a look at things like the fitness movement, NOFAP (which I think it's BS but that's beside the point), etc.

A lot of individuals get lost in this cultural transitional period, but I think this always happened. A good example was the hippy movement, they where very drug and free sex positive too. Society as whole will be OK I think, other non-legal checks and boundaries are being set up to prevent a major collapse. Collectively we learn from mistakes and correct for extreme behaviors.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#867

Post by totalconfusion » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:41 AM UTC

sharperguy wrote: post #8

I always thought decriminalization was in some ways the worst of both worlds. On one hand, keeping the production and trade side illegal continues to perpetuate the underground culture and fund international cartels. Meanwhile their market base increases due to fewer people being afraid of being caught, the product quality is still completely unregulated. Users still need to stay embedded in an an unscrupulous underw…

Completely agree, in for a dime in for a dollar. The reality is legalizing drugs is a politically untenable platform to get elected on because economic realities like supply and demand play no role in the deeply entrenched moral prejudice that is so prevalent in the (often older) voting population.

I don't mean to be offensive or ageist and I'm sure lots of older people have been touched both directly and indirectly by drug abuse, my experience is those that have been affected in some way have changed their long held views on drugs being a criminal issue as opposed to a medical one.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#868

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:43 AM UTC

godelski wrote: post #842

vjk800 wrote: post #826

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. In places with diverse people from different backgrounds and cultures (i.e. all modern cities) there is no social contract. Apart from murdering people, there are very few things that people agree are universally good or bad, and thus the behaviour moderating effect doe…

I've lived in small towns and big towns. The difference is that in the big town the drug users are anonymous in that you don't know them. In the small down they are your coworker's sister's brother in law. I lived in a town of 20k people that was BY FAR the largest for an hour drive in any direction. Lots of drunks. First place I lived there, my neighbor was selling meth, put up a confederate flag in their window whe…

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#869

Post by Demotooodo » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:52 AM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #54

Demotooodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a novelty right now. In Amsterdam when you go to a music festival you will not see a lot of pod heads. I was one of the few and I'm a German! Look at Portugals drug history. Legalization saved that country!

> In Amsterdam when you go to a music festival you will not see a lot of pod heads I could be wrong, but I don't believe marijuana is as-legal in Amsterdam as it is in California for example. In CA, there's very few enforced restrictions of where you can get it and where you can use it. > Look at Portugals drug history. Legalization saved that country! It doesn't appear so[1]. It appears they are struggling with the…

You get it in a lot of shops without any issues.

And that's the way for more than 10 years.

Even as a tourist

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#870

Post by johnnyanmac » Wed, Aug 02, 2023, 9:54 AM UTC

davidmnoll wrote: post #702

javajosh wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It presents an interesting problem for those "left behind" who value shame, self-restraint, and other unpopular virtues. The neoliberal view is that you can prove your point by forming subcultures that do better than the surrounding culture. I think that's true, but it's a plan B - plan A should be to fight hard to not lose those values in the first place. It's appalling that public discourse about systemic issues ha…

If you’re talking about public policy, IMO personal moral opinions have no place. Do you really want the state teaching “personal responsibility”? Even if you did, do you really think they could do it effectively? We have the highest prison population per capita as it is. It’s been tried. Over and over. Using the idea that millions of people are just morally deficient as public policy is a proven failure. There’s alw…

>Do you really want the state teaching “personal responsibility”?

but they do. All those "eat healthy", "don't do drugs", "play outside 2 hours a day"? They were all funded by some government if they were displaying in public schools. It's not the only nor even primary pillar, but it is a big one.

And of course I don't need to specify how they indirectly teach/punish personal responsibilities with subsidies. Slashing the subsidies on corn would cause more radical changes than any sort of propganda they show on ads.