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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#861

Post by kodah »

KwisatzHaderack wrote: post #778
kodah wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's different reasons we design different systems to combat discrimination or lop-sided outcomes. White and Asian people, if that is their only identifying class characteristic, are not discriminated against generally. An argument could be made that white and Asian people from poor backgrounds don't make it into programming as much, but again - class lines. We probably should compensate for class more in discrimi…

> Asian people, if that is their only identifying class characteristic, are not discriminated against generally. Harvard would like a word with you. But in all seriousness, Asians face the discrimination of being perceived as foreign and “the other” more so compared to other racial minorities. So the claim that they generally don’t face discrimination is not true.

Yeah, poor choice of words on my part. They don't face discrimination in hiring. They make up a fairly large chunk of tech engineering.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#862

Post by tptacek »

MockObject wrote: post #857
tptacek wrote: post #856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the world is full of conflict perspectives, not least among right-wingers. They can't all be Marxists, just because Gramsci came up with an ultra-generalizable concept. (I think we agree, just writing it down to clarify my thoughts).

We do agree here. It's interesting that calling CRT "Marxist" gives the Fox News watchers a familiar enemy to fulminate against, and it gives the CRT peddlers themselves unearned credibility as dangerous dissidents, so it's a misidentification that serves everyone but the dwindling number of actual Marxists, and pedants bent on accuracy.

Yeah! Suck it, Maciej!

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#863

Post by mikrotikker »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #858
mikrotikker wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intersectionality? The ideology famous for having a victim heirarchy so you have an ideological rating of how much of a victim someone is?

Could you link me to the source that describes intersectionality in a way even remotely approximating that? Or where this "victim hierarchy" is detailed? I'd love to calculate my victim score™.

https://medium.com/@burntoakboy/the-hierarchy-of-victimhood-....

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#864

Post by DonaldPShimoda »

FFRefresh wrote: post #505
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on IRC for a similar amount of time, sexual harassment was always done in private so you wouldn't have seen it on main rooms, and victims were often newbies who didn't know reporting channels or didn't feel empowered to report, being the noobs and all. (Think randomly PMing women to ask for feet/boob pictures, or asking to be PMd to help debug something and then use it as an opportunity to pressure for sext…

If one wanted to substantiate some of your claims here to be convinced of the problem you suggest, what's the best way to do that? What are the names of the IRC channels you were part of that said they weren't bigoted but used homophobic slurs every day?

Just for other people's benefit: this comment is an excellent example of the kind of harassment women and others face online. When they try to relate their lived experiences, they are questioned relentlessly and asked for proof of things that obviously cannot be proven in a conclusive manner. (And if any proof is given, the goalposts are typically moved.)

If your first response to someone saying "I was harassed" is "I need objective evidence before I believe that this could possibly have happened", you're part of the problem.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#865

Post by mikrotikker »

onetimeusename wrote: post #831
mikrotikker wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, by white people who use DEI for power.

so no non-white person has ever profited from DEI? It's all just white people's fault?

Good point.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#866

Post by PathOfEclipse »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #848
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I wouldn't blatantly tell obvious lies. I clicked on the link. Sowell didn't say that at all. But I have to admit, that's a new one. Falsely claim someone said something awful, then provide a link to make it look legitimate. It's a pretty vile and disgusting tactic, honestly. But that's what I've come to expect from people of a certain political persuasion. Anyways, I'll continue to link Sowell. I suggest…

Don't do this here, I'm not trying to start a flame war over solipsism

No, I will do this here.

In the best case, you were mistaken. It is still a very evil thing to defame someone with such a horrible accusation when you couldn't even be bothered to take two minutes to get your facts straight! It took me literally less than 2 minutes to scan your linked article and see that you were wrong.

In the worst case, you're being willingly dishonest, which is even more evil. Or you could be somewhere in the middle. Regardless, your action is some kind of significant evil in my book, and it deserves calling out.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#867

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #866
GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do this here, I'm not trying to start a flame war over solipsism

No, I will do this here. In the best case, you were mistaken. It is still a very evil thing to defame someone with such a horrible accusation when you couldn't even be bothered to take two minutes to get your facts straight! It took me literally less than 2 minutes to scan your linked article and see that you were wrong. In the worst case, you're being willingly dishonest, which is even more evil. Or you could be som…

Calling someone "evil" is a very easy way to convince yourself that you've won an "argument"

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#868

Post by PathOfEclipse »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #867
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I will do this here. In the best case, you were mistaken. It is still a very evil thing to defame someone with such a horrible accusation when you couldn't even be bothered to take two minutes to get your facts straight! It took me literally less than 2 minutes to scan your linked article and see that you were wrong. In the worst case, you're being willingly dishonest, which is even more evil. Or you could be som…

Calling someone "evil" is a very easy way to convince yourself that you've won an "argument"

I called your action evil. So now I believe you either have poor reading comprehension or you're just habitually dishonest. Do you have any other explanations for your behavior?

And, frankly, pointing out that someone's statement is completely and unequivocally false is an even easier way to convince yourself you've won an "argument".

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#869

Post by PathOfEclipse »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #847
goatlover wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn't say that in the article you linked. Sowel's argument is against the liberal policies of the past 30+ years compared to post-slavery economic growth among blacks prior to that. You can dispute his claims, but nowhere does he say that blacks were better off under slavery. He's claiming they were better off after slavery and before the modern welfare state, which as a conservative he views as destructive to t…

You've repeated the point I was trying to make about Sowell's viewpoint. Thank you: > He's claiming they were better off after slavery and before the modern welfare state, which as a conservative he views as destructive to the nuclear family and produces a sense of victimhood.

These two sentences are not the same:

You: [Sowell] has literally claimed that Black Americans were better off during slavery than they are today

Sowell: If we are to go by evidence of social retrogression, liberals have wreaked more havoc on blacks than the supposed “legacy of slavery” they talk about.

If you can't see how these ideas are nothing alike, then I don't know how to help you.

> He's claiming they were better off after slavery and before the modern welfare state,

Goatlover's analysis of Sowell's words was much better than yours, but he too is wrong. Sowell is wisely not making any claims about whether blacks were better off overall in one time period or another. He is focused solely on the impact of the past on the present. In particular, he is responding to the claim that there is “overwhelming evidence that centuries of racial subjugation still shape inequity in the 21st century”.

In response to this claim, Sowell counters that the legacy of liberalism and of the welfare state has had a more negative impact on blacks today than the legacy of slavery. Again, he is solely dealing with the impact of the past on the present, which has absolutely nothing to do with your accusation. Your accusation would require him to make a claim about the overall well-being of blacks in the past versus the present, which Sowell never once makes.

Sowell's words are important, by the way, because diagnosing an illness wrong means prescribing the wrong cure and making the patient sicker, not better. "More harm than good" is the clarion call of the modern conservative, and it is because so many "progressive" policies in the last century have done exactly that, causing more problems, wreaking more havoc, and ruining more lives than helping, saving, or lifting anyone up.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#870

Post by ModernMech »

mikrotikker wrote: post #863
LordDragonfang wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you link me to the source that describes intersectionality in a way even remotely approximating that? Or where this "victim hierarchy" is detailed? I'd love to calculate my victim score™.

https://medium.com/@burntoakboy/the-hierarchy-of-victimhood-... .

What’s missing here is a notion of intersectionality, which explicitly is about how people are not just a singular identity, but an “intersection” of many - some of which may confer privilege, some of which may be discriminated against.

Ignoring this body of work makes the linked article a straw man argument with some cherry picked examples that don’t even make a point (why am I supposed to care that AOC tweets about some people at the exclusion of others?)

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