EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms • Hacker News Board

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#861

Post by cafed00d » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #440

cafed00d wrote: post #231

I hope Apple turns Xcode features into a tiered pricing model to counter balance and keep developers in check. 1. Want to use the swift compiler? Pay $5000 per year per user (pretty competitively priced if you compare it to the MATLAB Compiler) 2. Want to click any of the “Services” buttons to enable “Siri” etc in your app? $100 per user per year 3. Want to log and instrument your iOS app in production? $1000 per dev…

> Institutionalized 3p developers should be treated like adversaries The weird part about your statement here, is that you bring up a statement about 3rd party developers doing bad things, and yet the solutions you gave do nothing except for take extra money from those 3rd parties and gives that money to Apple. If you actually cared about stopping all these bad actions, why didn't you suggest an action that gives App…

As a user, why do I care if apple makes money over 3p devs. They’re all screwing over users in the end anyways.

But historical data shows Apple has been enormously better at strong-arming devs into behaving properly. That’s why I can safely assume that $0 needs to paid to that scummy dev making a flashlight app; I mean, I can safely assume there’s no app on the App Store adding noise by advertising $1 or $10 or whatever for just a flashlight app.

In fact, I’m tech savvy enough to see a scammy app on the App Store. Apple needs to toughen up on 3p even more. I see my girlfriend’s phone or my parents iPhone and notice all these apps for taking a screenshot, saving pdfs etc that trick them into buying subscriptions. Whatever Apple is doing makes me fork over $1000 for a phone. At least I can rely on the fact that using it for calculator or the compass isn’t gonna cost me additional $ — no matter how “reasonably small” that fee is from the developer’s perspective.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#862

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #742

smoldesu wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here. Nobody is forcing you to download the Facebook app. It's perfectly usable inside a web browser, nevermind the fact that a sideloaded version of Facebook could still leverage the same security benefits provided by iOS' sandboxing model. At this point you're basically arguing that Apple should be the one who dictates what privacy should look like..…

> I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here. Nobody is forcing you to download the Facebook app. It's perfectly usable inside a web browser, nevermind the fact that a sideloaded version of Facebook could still leverage the same security benefits provided by iOS' sandboxing model. I'll see if I can help. 1. A lot of people feel forced to use the Facebook ecosystem - there are groups and ma…

1. They can use Facebook on desktop, or again, the mobile app.

2. Past misbehavior means greater scrutiny would be put upon Facebook, especially if they launch an unprecedented new product as high-profile as a competing Meta app store.

3. Regulators can and will act against Facebook for such restrictive behavior as well. People who want to use Reddit on mobile have the option of Apollo.

4. Apple still controls their devices from an OS level. They can enforce plenty of security and privacy features from there. On MacOS already, apps that aren't on the Mac App Store must still undergo notarization. Why do you doubt Apple's ability to execute? The App Store is not the final word on security.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#863

Post by stjohnswarts » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #714

KerrAvon wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will not be a benefit to consumers. If I have a choice of an Android phone or an Android-like phone with an Apple logo on it, I don’t have a real choice.

Sure you do have a real choice. Simply only use the Apple app store and you will have the same phone you had before.

If apple has to drill holes in their hardware/software API for sideloaders, it is not the same. Known CCP agents like tiktok would love to sneak around any "securty/sandbox" and have more opportunities for attack.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#864

Post by VyseofArcadia » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #841

VyseofArcadia wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment, but in my experience that's just not true. [1] The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. The Switch even more so, because the games will run right off the cartridge without needing updates. They have available updates, but the version shipped on the cartridge is 100% playable. [1] With the exception of the XBox because Microsoft can't get their shit together.

> The PS4 and PS5 are nice and pain free. Are they, though? Turn them off for 6 months, 1 year, then come back to them. Wanted to play Fifa with a friend that had a... PS4. OS update, game updates, the whole shebang. It wasn't much better than Windows + Steam.

Your Windows + Steam experience sounds a lot smoother than mine if all you have to complain about is updates.

I experience breaking updates all the time on PC. "Wait, why is this game crashing now?" "Wait, why have all of my settings been reset?" "Wait, why has the framerate tanked since the last update?" "Wait, why isn't my controller working anymore?"

All of these happen to me on Steam games. It's infuriating. I'll happily take the console experience of updates that don't break things.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#865

Post by vorpalhex » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

laserlight wrote: post #792

stevewatson301 wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated elsewhere on this thread, the 30% isn’t entirely going to Apple’s pockets — they have costs such as App Store bandwidth costs, support costs for purchases made, and the likes.

Let's say Apple pockets all 30% as profit. Who is to say Apple should or shouldn't profit that much from the App Store? Who decides how much they should profit? I find the discussion around commissions shallow and entitled. We should discuss the fundamentals: market definition, competition, abuse of power, etc. PS: In case I couldn't make it clear, my questions are not directed to parent comment.

Do you remember when Apple was engaged in price rigging for ebooks?

https://www.nbcnews.com/businessmain/apple-faces-5-year-ban-...

We already have rules about how much control a single company can have over a market and what defines a market. The app store is clearly a market. Apple has an aggressive chokehold on it that artificially inflates prices and prevents competition.

As an obvious check - Amazon can't sell me ebooks through it's kindle app without Apple being involved and taking a 30% cut. That is market control and abuse.

Let's say you want to build a direct competitor to an Apple product. You can't because Apple actually won't let you do the things it's apps do if you want to be listed in the store. That's called market abuse.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#866

Post by robotnikman » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #381

latexr wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of them. It’s my understanding that’s not (always?) true for Nintendo consoles. The Switch makes a profit on hardware[1] and that was a goal before launch[2]. [1]: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/79180/xboxes-arent-profitable... [2]: https://venturebeat.com/2016/10/26/nintendo-wont-sell-switch...

That's extremely interesting and I didn't know it. Conventional wisdom dictates that consoles sell at a loss.

It was the same with the Wii as well iirc, it shared a lot of components with the Gamecube.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#867

Post by stjohnswarts » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

Sargos wrote: post #852

martin8412 wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because apps will be moved to other stores with less strict guidelines on permissions. Meta will for sure do it. They mentioned Apple as a major reason for their poor financial performance, after Apple introduced further restrictions on what they can and can't do. They've also been caught red handed before, and had their enterprise developer account disabled for abusing it to do things they weren't allowed to on…

> No, because apps will be moved to other stores with less strict guidelines on permissions. This hasn't happened on Android so your argument falls flat.

They don't have those restrictions on Android :)

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#868

Post by stjohnswarts » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #828

martin8412 wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because apps will be moved to other stores with less strict guidelines on permissions. Meta will for sure do it. They mentioned Apple as a major reason for their poor financial performance, after Apple introduced further restrictions on what they can and can't do. They've also been caught red handed before, and had their enterprise developer account disabled for abusing it to do things they weren't allowed to on…

And why Apple should be the arbiter of truth in the question? They are free to make the UX for enabling side-loading as inconvenient as they want (I haven’t heard anyone accidentally unlocking dev mode on Android for example), and presumably Facebook is not big enough to overcome that burden, effectively still forcing them to play by Apple’s rules. But why should everyone do so?

Because it's their hardware and software and should be able to choose? They aren't preventing you have buying an android phone

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#869

Post by stjohnswarts » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #533

stjohnswarts wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's great! but why force apple to do it when it doesn't have a monopoly status in the phone market?

Because it will be a benefit to consumers? The EU has the authority to create new regulations, it’s not limited to antitrust.

Why not just have EU draw up specs on a phone that apple and android phone companies have to adhere to. Why allow any variance at all? Surely a one size fits everything approach would be best for the consumer, and designed by the EU government brain trust it would surely be the best?

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#870

Post by robotnikman » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

concinds wrote: post #540

the_duke wrote: post #244

This regulation is 5+ years overdue, but legislation always lags behind market conditions. If the US/other countries follow suit there will probably be a big unintended effect though: the diminishing of open web standards and Google getting final say about what will work on "the web" and what won't. With Firefox diminishing, Safari is the last bastion against a Chromium-only web. There are lots of Chromium forks, but…

The "Chrome's only dominant because Google's advertising it on their web properties and bundling it with Java's installer!" narrative is BS. Apple is heavily advertising Safari on sites like reddit since a few months ago. They're also abusing macOS notifications to promote Safari[0]. There's no Windows XP-style "browser choice" screen on Mac or iOS; Safari is bundled (I know macOS isn't a monopoly, but bundling is bu…

You also forgot that Safari is also unavailable on non Apple devices (I think it was previously many years ago iirc) which means its market share is restricted to Apple devices. Even if Apple advertises Safari, it can only be used on those Apple devices.

Meanwhile, Chrome can be installed on just about everything.