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Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

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Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Invisible Hand works generally fine-ish for non-essential and commodity goods. People might be sad their favorite store went away, but, for the most part, life goes on. It seems to even be the least bad way to handle these sorts of things. It's a bit harder for me to see this as an acceptable approach to health care. Not every segment of the economy needs to be a constant drunkard's walk in search of maximum prof…

Will people pay more for stability and reliability? If so, then that is what businesses will optimize for. Businesses exist to give us what we want. Those that do it well are profitable, those that don’t aren’t. Keep in mind that the effort spent to make healthcare more stable could have instead been used to provide more healthcare overall. Or something else entirely, like shoes or haircuts. All services are not as g…

> Will people pay more for stability and reliability?

Given that the USA pays higher-than-average prices for poorer-than-average outcomes, I'd say this is a spurious hypothetical, mostly useful for helping to demarcate the point where economics ceases to be an empirical, scientific pursuit and instead becomes a sort of low-rigor offshoot of moral philosophy.

But, back in the realm of epiricism, we know that this is one of those situations where closer government regulation can produce higher quality of service at lower cost, because the rest of the developed world has figured out multiple successful formulae for doing so. The only clear downside, if you can call it that, is that their hospital administrators don't seem to have quite such large collections of luxury watches.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads too much like a generalization of the standard complaints about management and their stupid meetings, the basic thesis of that web comic that was neither funny nor true, Dilbert. The criminal justice system may be overwhelmed, but its reaction certainly isn't to just let criminals "exit like a revolving door". The US is still incarcerating people at 10x the rate of other wealthy countries. Nurses being ove…

>Nurses being overworked is simply due to there not being enough nurses. yes but this begs the obvious question of "why?", which either leads to the immediate thoughts of 1. not enough people want to be nurses 2. companies don't want to hire more nurses I'm assuming #1 is false, so #2 is the go-to conclusion, at least on the high level. I'm sure I'm missing some more nuanced #3/4/5 explanations, but it does seem to u…

The obvious #3 is "nurses are doing too much non-nurse stuff" which relates to both #1 (job is annoying and not what I want to do) and #2 in a way (they are not hiring non-nurses and/or investing in equipment, tools, etc).

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#863
post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

> IT systems that they have to use were designed by people who have not talked with the workers who use them.

I wonder if you are talking about Eclipse software which seems to be universally frustrating for doctors and nurses across many countries.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#864
post #836

My experience: I'm an icu nurse in the sf bay area. I make a good salary. However, you can make this and more with a job with less physical and emotional stress/abuse. Even the "best" hospitals like kaiser/stanford/ucsf are always short staffed. I considered another area of nursing/hc but it's really all the same BS of being short staffed, constantly being denied vacations, etc. I feel like a waitress, custodian, soc…

Happy to hear that you’re progressing towards a career path that sounds like it will be more fulfilling/better conditions. I just wanted to say that it’s a sad state of affairs when we’re happy to expect uninterrupted breaks. Goes to show just how much we _really_ supported our frontline workers. Best of luck to you!

It rather reminds me of a zinger I read in an article about the plight of people trying to find good jobs after leaving the US military, written at the height of support for the War on Terrorism and consequent fashion for publicly, vocally "saluting our men (sic) in uniform":

The American people will do anything for their veterans except take them seriously.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Invisible Hand works generally fine-ish for non-essential and commodity goods. People might be sad their favorite store went away, but, for the most part, life goes on. It seems to even be the least bad way to handle these sorts of things. It's a bit harder for me to see this as an acceptable approach to health care. Not every segment of the economy needs to be a constant drunkard's walk in search of maximum prof…

Will people pay more for stability and reliability? If so, then that is what businesses will optimize for. Businesses exist to give us what we want. Those that do it well are profitable, those that don’t aren’t. Keep in mind that the effort spent to make healthcare more stable could have instead been used to provide more healthcare overall. Or something else entirely, like shoes or haircuts. All services are not as g…

“All is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.”

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#866

About 7 years ago I switched to nursing from nearly 35 years as a software engineer. Each 13-hour shift my 6 or 7 patients, if there was a moment to talk, would ask why I did so. I'd make pretty much the same joke every time: "I was looking a job that was much much harder and paid much much less, so I landed on nursing. Unlike in a hospital, when I was in software and there was a crisis, we'd schedule a meeting and o…

Would you mind sharing more about your experience? And what made you decide to change careers in the first place?

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#867

Is this a shock? - Demanding work: 12 hour shifts, irregular schedules, night shifts, physically exhausting, limited breaks (including bathroom/water!) - High responsibility with unsafe conditions. You're literally responsible for people's lives. Poor staffing ratios stretch you thin and make you more likely to make mistakes. And if you make a mistake, you're at huge risk for litigation... and now criminal consequenc…

Some of these conditions have always existed. But I can't imagine 90% have wanted to quit in the last decade. The most important factor thus is most likely COVID

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#868
post #837
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make $4-500k as a software engineer in the midwest This is a massive outlier though. In your case, the exception proves the rule. The rule: "The 1% of Nurses that found a partner in the US top 1 percentile will be able to quit their job."

OK fair, but let's say that making $250k as a senior/experienced software engineer these days is fairly middle of the road. It's still double . (I managed a team where post-Covid, 3 left to make >$500k, 2-4 round up the $3250-$425k range. It sure _feels_ average)

$250k is only middle of the road for a senior engineer in places like The Bay where the majority of jobs are at big, successful public companies.

Outside of that, $250k is pretty much top of the like for a SWE.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#869
post #46

I've spent a fair amount of time talking with nurses about the problems. I'm related to a bunch of people who are nurses across disciplines (ER, ICU, med/surg, etc). It's been enlightening hearing them talk about the problems... 1. Many new nurses make the same or more and long time nurses. It's frustrating when the nurse in charge with the most experience is making less than new nurses. Some hospitals are even tryin…

The one I think you are missing is that nurses are and have been overworked for a WHILE now. (that's what I get from /r/nursing) Hospitals have made sure they hire JUST ENOUGH nurses to cover shifts and no more. With covid hitting, this blew out the number of nurses needed resulting in a lot of "I know you've already worked 60 hours, but can you do another 20? we are short!". Rather than hiring permanent people or up…

I think this gets it a bit backwards. There has been a shortage of nurses for decades, and it’s getting worse. This is exacerbated by an aging population and restrictive immigration policies. Travel/agency nurses were supposed to be load balancers for a system with variable demand for labor, but for a variety of structural reasons agencies began to pay nurses more. This has prompted a landslide of nurses moving into agency work. Labor costs have risen accordingly, but fundamentally that’s driven by the shortage of supply. If you talk to administrators they will tell you that they hate relying on agencies but they have no viable alternatives. They can’t raise wages because they have little/no control over their own cost structure thanks to the screwed up way healthcare in the US works, and most hospitals are barely scraping by. There are no easy answers to this one, and blaming it on shortsighted administrators (of which there are many!) misses the larger context.

Re: Report: 90% of nurses considering leaving the profession in the next year

#870
post #837
post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make $4-500k as a software engineer in the midwest This is a massive outlier though. In your case, the exception proves the rule. The rule: "The 1% of Nurses that found a partner in the US top 1 percentile will be able to quit their job."

OK fair, but let's say that making $250k as a senior/experienced software engineer these days is fairly middle of the road. It's still double . (I managed a team where post-Covid, 3 left to make >$500k, 2-4 round up the $3250-$425k range. It sure _feels_ average)

It is a fairly common problem. We extrapolate our perceptions of the world from our peer groups. I had to suppress my urge for saying I am underpaid at $200k, because my non-tech (still STEM) MIT & Harvard grad-student room-mates would get annoyed at me. That's how messed up our circles can get, when STEM grad students MIT and Harvard are the poor ones. We live within many nested bubbles.

$250k still puts you in the top 2 Percentile of the US. So, while double the nurses would get to retire cuz of rich husbands, 98% would still be in the same pickle.

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