Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

axios.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

861–870 of 876 posts

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#861

Post by bradknowles »

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

The ex-pat life comes with certain costs, yes. Did that from 1998 to 2006.

My wife was brought over to Belgium by what was then a subsidiary of JP Morgan, and they paid for all the additional expenses, including the tax services of some very talented people at Earnest & Young. They also paid for all the paperwork to get her a Belgian work permit. We weren’t actually married at the time, just engaged. But JPM agreed to treat us like a married couple. The only thing they didn’t pay for was the work permit for me.

It took a lot of effort for me to find work over there, a lot more than I expected, given my career and experience. And those companies did have to deal with the hassle of getting a work permit for me, as well as complications with US taxes. I didn’t end up working at Belgacom Skynet for long, but that cratered more because the parent company wanted to re-absorb the ISP arm back in-house, and so all the technical people with a clue bailed like rats from that sinking ship, and I was just one of the last to leave.

But hoo boy, every year, that poor team of accountants at E&Y had their work cut out for them, when it came time to file our taxes.

In the end, the reason we left was that my wife’s employer (now spun off from JPM) wanted to pay her as a Belgian native, and we had been in the country long enough to get Belgian passports. But that would have been a massive pay cut for her, and did not make financial sense to us. They were very surprised when she told them that she was not going to be accepting that offer, and so they had to negotiate to pay her as an ex-pay for one more year while she worked to help find a replacement and train her office to handle that transition. Part of that negotiation involved getting them to agree to move us to whatever country we wanted — including moving back to the US.

So, yeah — I can understand why some people might choose to go the other direction, and renounce their US citizenship.

OTOH, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the ultra-wealthy people who have all decided to set up shop in New Zealand. Yes, visiting NZ is on my bucket list. But I’m not interested in giving up my US citizenship and moving there permanently.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#862

Post by fennecfoxy »

sunshineforever wrote: post #740
noodlesUK wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is in theory, but even small businesses incorporated abroad with US persons involved in them put huge reporting burdens on the US person. Form 5471 and friends make this stuff look straightforward. Most of the time I find my frustration isn’t about how much money I am paying in taxes, but just how much dull and confusing paperwork I have to understand. Even trained professionals who spend their whole lives d…

I've always wondered of it was possible to move to the UK by starting a business that required a UK presence and using that as a reason for an indefinate residence permit?

Nope. You cannot really sponsor yourself working for you own company, that would be such an obvious loophole.

I've been living here 3.5 years, 2 on a YM visa, 1.5 on a work visa. Unfortunately, my 2 years on YM don't even count towards the 5 required to get ILR. You can build up an entire life here & all it takes is for your work visa to be disappeared and then you have 1 month notice to gtfo the country otherwise you're "overstaying".

After 3.5 years somewhere you definitely build up "a life" there, but the UK gov offers no protections at all. Until you hit that 5 year mark they don't give a toss about you.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#863

Post by fennecfoxy »

londons_explore wrote: post #773
sunshineforever wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered of it was possible to move to the UK by starting a business that required a UK presence and using that as a reason for an indefinate residence permit?

Yes. The UK has pretty open borders for anyone willing to put effort in.

As long as you mean 5 years of uninterrupted work visa (YM doesn't count) where losing your visa forces to to leave w/ 1 month's notice, then sure, they have "open borders".

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#864

Post by withinboredom »

Aicy wrote: post #796
yawaworht1978 wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies, I did not mean the English expression of fit, rather the status of sports fitness levels, he's doing ok for his age.

I don't think that term applies either. He appears to be quite overweight.

In the military I saw people get kicked out for being “overweight.” Interestingly, they could run circles around you for 12 miles, throw you several yards, or otherwise destroy a Physical Fitness Test.

Looking “overweight” can be quite deceiving.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#865

Post by withinboredom »

simonh wrote: post #351
emodendroket wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for high-income people because they have to pay tax to continue to benefit from US citizenship and US embassies? I don't really, nor do I consider it getting "screwed." I think it is only fair that well-to-do expats should pay into the system like everybody else. If they don't want to, I welcome them to take the article's lead and give up their citizenship.

If it was just getting taxed up to a point I think you'd have a reasonable argument, but looking at the torturous nonsense they have to go through to the point where even US banks think the costs of having them as clients isn't worth the hassle, it's clearly way beyond that. Also, many of these people don't actually owe any tax at all, or relatively small amounts, but it's ridiculously difficult and costly to prove i…

After not living in the US for a few years, your view of the US is quite disillusioned. They don’t want you to come back and live there. The need to keep everyone thinking the US is the best. /s

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#866

Post by fourthwaveska »

zarkov99 wrote: post #858
fourthwaveska wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Nada. None. Zilch. But enjoy singing some bad national anthem and crying while waving a flag or maybe killing someone who disrespects your flag, or whatever it is the patriotic kids do today. We really have no country or stable home right now. Once we get to Spain we will love being there, but we will still hold no sense of patriotism. I'm not willing to fight, murder, or die for a nation. Some people are wired…

That level of detachment is only affordable to you because of the generations of people that fought, murdered and died for the nations on which you now can so comfortably live. Perhaps you think that work is done. Maybe you are right, at this moment, but if history is any guide, it could all change in an instant and you could need people who are willing to fight for your way of live.

I don't owe those people who came before me anything. They did what they did of their own volition, I had zero say in the matter. My mother could easily have been in Russia, Crete or Antarctica when I crawled out of her birth canal.

The concept of patriotism and nationalism is purely ridiculous to me. Patriotism is the erroneous belief that you are special because of what side of a line your mother was on when you were born.

I think maybe it makes more sense if you believe in god or some other superstition.

People live, people die, the world goes on, that's it.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#867

Post by fourthwaveska »

enriquec wrote: post #114
fourthwaveska wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the bottom of my heart, fuck off. If you get blackmailed, abducted, squeezed or raided in any way, the U.S. will have the privilege of not caring. Guess you have never lived abroad? If you think the US doesnt care about you when you’re in country, you dont even exist when you’re out of it. Imagine being in the middle of a coup, calling up your consulate for guidance only to find out that they all left the coun…

Where was that?

Istanbul, 15/July/2015.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#868

Post by withinboredom »

fourthwaveska wrote: post #44

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship. It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are bei…

If you’re doing consulting. Check out the DAFT visa for the NL. Death stares or not, spend 5 years, get a permanent resident status and move to Spain.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#869

Post by withinboredom »

liamdgray wrote: post #680

If I am a US citizen with negligible assets and a plan to move abroad and renounce my US citizenship, and I plan to found a software startup, how should I go about it to minimize the taxes I eventually pay to my soon to be former government, whose unjust practices I'm trying to stop funding? I could potentially wait until my US citizenship is a thing of the past before I even build anything, let alone create a new le…

Might be a few days too late… but here’s the strategy I’m using. Start a Dutch BV and hire yourself and move you to the Netherlands. The BV will Sponsor you under the Dutch-American Friendship Treaty. Don’t mention “startup” though, that’s a totally different (and much harder to get) visa.

You can renew a DAFT visa as much as you want, but after 5-7 years, you can get a Dutch passport as long as you stay in the country enough.

Due to tax treaties, you get a 30% tax cut in the NL (30% ruling) for five years, and you only pay the difference on US taxes after paying NL taxes (virtually impossible because NL taxes are generally higher than US taxes).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#870

Post by realityking »

lionhead wrote: post #778
bnralt wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Americans seem to believe that, but it doesn't actually seem to be the case. For instance, when Yemen was falling apart, countries like China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and Indonesia all worked hard to evacuate their citizens, many using their military to do so[1]. The U.S. response was to tell American citizens they were on their own[2]. The U.S. embassy even recommended that Americans seek assistance from India…

At the early onset of the Covid-19 pandemic started, many countries sent special planes to repatriate their citizens either from the Wuhan region, or from other countries where they got stuck because of a sudden borders close. The US also organized flights, but I was personally very shocked to learn that they charged close to $1,200 for those trips, although it was clearly a case of force majeure. That was the moment…

At least Germany, which came up upthread, also charged those they helped return: https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/28/german-passengers-sue-go...

Apparently they charge the price of a one way Economy ticket. The difference in cost was paid by the Government. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Post reply on HN