On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#861

Post by Pfhreak » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:15 AM UTC

2lwxxtj wrote: post #600

Pfhreak wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). > That's your opinion Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. So l…

>Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. Not really. If you're talking specifically about whether an unmarried man that fits some particular criteria is owed a wife, most people in the western world at this point in time would agree with you. But that's far from universal. >The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom a…

So... Oppress women is the solution you are proposing here? Why have you gendered it at all? Why do women have to face social stigma and not men? What about gay relationships, presumably you'd apply the same thinking (en route to a marriage or married)? What about poly relationships?

> I think from society's perspective, my wife should owe me a relationship.

I'm going to assume you mean owes you a supportive, caring, platonic relationship. Eg, two married people support one another to their mutual benefit. I'm going to assume you don't mean to imply your spouse owes you sex.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#862

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:26 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #860

matheusmoreira wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. So they don't need to improve themselves, they just need to believe in the right things and suddenly women will value them. Really? > I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women. And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. Look at data from onlin…

No, you misunderstand. They are optimizing for what they think will get them success, not what will actually get them success. > And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. No, incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date. What toxic nonsense. And also, you still haven't put forward any changes you'd like to see to remedy the situation as you see it. Bring solutions to…

> not what will actually get them success

Which is?

> incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date

Did you not look at the evidence? Online dating is already the primary means of forming relationships. There's data showing women reject over 80% of men they see on dating apps. They actively choose to compete over the other 20%. They'd rather share a top 20% man than settle with a bottom 80% man.

How is this supposed to not create a class of universally rejected men?

> Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.

Why bother? I doubt you'd consider any real solution since they would naturally result in disadvantages for women in favor of men and would therefore be "toxic nonsense".

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#863

Post by andi999 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

QuercusMax wrote: post #485

ayyy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've conflated the idea of "needing" something with the idea of "deserving" something. For example, some people need food, but they don't deserve it just because they're alive. We call that hunger. Other people need housing, but they don't deserve it just because they're alive. We call that homelessness. Some need sex, but they don't deserve it just because they're alive. We call those people incels.

Why don't you think people deserve housing and food, in the richest country in the history of the world? Our society could absolutely provide them, it just doesn't because they're "not worthy".

Different societies has different understandings what people deserve.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#864

Post by usbline » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #489

usbline wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>status-seeking behavior not nature >current economic realities not nature >the changing marketplace of dating again, not nature

When a monkey vies for status in its group, it's nature, but when a human does the same thing, it's not?

Why do you insist on calling social behavior "nature"? Terrible troll.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#865

Post by shrikant » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:50 AM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #573

spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

Let this be the moment when the pendulum began to swing back in the conservative direction. Conservatives get a lot of things wrong but not all of it.

Free markets are best, except for sex. IOW, capitalist in the streets, communist in the sheets?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#866

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

troway357924 wrote: post #797

toyg wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. But there is a way to improve supply: give dignity to prostitution.

The movie Her is prophetic. The way to improve supply is with sex robots.

This will not provide for the psychological need to be valued and wanted by another human being.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#867

Post by mrweasel » Wed, May 05, 2021, 7:08 AM UTC

crocsarecool wrote: post #589

mrweasel wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an excellent interview in Danish radio with male/couples therapist, his take was really interesting. There are three groups of men, in his view. The lower class, being uneducated and poor, the upper class, being extremely successful. Both of these group have no problem with the changing male roles or feminism, they just ignore it or it doesn't affect them. They just continue as always and it works for them.…

Please bring back the gentleman! I feel like men and women’s roles have taken a left turn from becoming equals in society to striving for sameness.

> roles have taken a left turn from becoming equals in society to striving for sameness.

That was actually also part of this interview. They had the therapist with this thesis and another sexual/couples therapist, and the general consensus between them was that "sameness" kills sexual tensions in a relationship. This results in less sex, which in turn, for most people, means a less happy relationship.

There is an expectation men and women should be the same, expect in the bedroom, where the man should return to some classic or traditional role. That just doesn't work, that duality isn't something most people are able to deal with mentally.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#868

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, May 05, 2021, 7:12 AM UTC

klaudius wrote: post #745

alcover wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It's a fact...that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization . Some men mak…

Robin Hanson has also compares sex and income distribution: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/06/comparing-income-sex-...

This is a really interesting perspective. Thank you for posting it. The author also neatly outlines why it's so hard to talk about controversial stuff nowadays.

> Most who expressed outrage at my post, even most in the mass media, did not offer counter-arguments to my analogy.

> They were instead content to identify me with sex-poor people today willing to do or sympathize with violence in order to advocate for sex redistribution.

> Such ‘incel’ advocates were said to be personally deeply icky, and therefore so also were any policies they advocate, and also anyone like me who did not attack they and their policies immediately with extreme prejudice.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#869

Post by jokoon » Wed, May 05, 2021, 7:15 AM UTC

It's weird because I thought I was part of that demographic, but I'm really not.

What matters here is mental health, communication and a willingness to stop using stereotypes about masculinity or feminity. Body image problems and stereotyped social skills also are the problem. There is an arm length of emotional issues and personality types that stems from childhood.

I discovered that most of the social mechanics at play in a romantic relationship are the same as in other types like friendship. Once you get that, it's easier.

I've never really subscribed to the incel rhetoric, but there are interesting notions like non monogamy, female hypergamy, not to mention a lot of other statistics that help think about this issue.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#870

Post by skissane » Wed, May 05, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

a_puppy wrote: post #510

I'm a guy who has, for my entire life, struggled to form romantic relationships. For a long time, I also struggled to form friendships. So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this, and here are my thoughts: The term "incel" is used to mean two wildly different things: - One meaning is "an incel is someone who's single and complains about it". Statistically, a few percent of 30-year-old men are virgins. Some…

> For one thing, we absolutely need to stop conflating the "raging misogynist" meaning of the word "incel" with the "man who's lonely" meaning of the word "incel"

The term "incel" was originally coined in an online community founded by a Canadian woman (Alana B) who identifies as a queer feminist. It is rather ironic that a community founded by a queer feminist woman morphs into "raging misogynist". But maybe reminding people of that history can be helpful in winding back than transformation and bringing the term back to what it originally meant, a useful word to describe a predicament which has the potential to afflict people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.