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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#861

Post by keithnz »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #167
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

Growing up in the 80's (UK) as a Roman Catholic, I remember the services being full on Sunday mornings. Not been since I left home at 18, because frankly I stopped believing in God the same time I stopped believing in Father Christmas (7?). The only reason I went was to make my parents happy. Now I'm in my 40's I do wonder if the lack of religion in society is leading us to a bad place. We know from numerous studies…

many of the largely atheist countries seem to be doing ok. But atheism isn't really anything other than a lack of belief in the claim there is a god. So what becomes more important is what you choose to make judgements, and many of the more atheist countries tend to have more secular humanist values. It's much more worthwhile talking about positive belief systems like secular humanism rather than lack of belief.

Also I'd be careful with any kind of statistics that measure people who conform more closely with Christian values in societies who are largely Christian or structured around christian ideals. Being outsiders in any society is often problematic because of how the society ends up treating/valuing you.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#862

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

throwawaygal7 wrote: post #497
jmcqk6 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And truly it already has. Our society requires complete unquestioning philosophical adherence to its new religion. Obviously, since speaking heresies like this will get you killed. /s Take a step back, disengage from the culture war, and take a look at what is actually happening.

But it can cost you a job, and your place in society

...so can religion? I mean we literally had to implement laws to say you can’t get fired for your religion, so clearly it was a problem.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#863

Post by [deleted] »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

[deleted]

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#864

Post by incompatible »

constGard wrote: post #717
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

In all fairness, this same rhetorical technique was commonly used in the faith that I was raised in. We were often taught that one could violate the Jewish/Christian commandment to "have no other gods before me" by placing more importance on material goods or hobbies (your car, your boat, sports, etc.) than worshiping God.

Does this apply to husbands and wives as well as cars?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#865

Post by goldcd »

lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

To cut to the chase "bullshit"

I am an atheist. I am without god. I respect no external judgement upon me.

Am I pure? Have I fallen victim to the seduction of mammon and the innumerable trinkets of existence - of course I have, and accept I will until the day I die.

Do I worship myself and take excessive pride in my self-stated virtues - clearly I do, as you can see if you've read this far.

But outside of my petty rhetoric, I know I came from nothing and at the end of my life-span I will return from whence I came.

I find this comforting.

There's no game to win, no test to pass, no heaven to enter - just a feeling of solidarity with those I share my temporal-blip-in-the-light with.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#866

Post by incompatible »

xioxox wrote: post #491
nly wrote: post #35

For comparison, UK church membership is Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting http…

Yes, reading this thread as someone from the UK makes me realise the US is very different culturally from the UK. I'm sure the proportion of people for whom religion is important in their lives is much much smaller in the UK than the US. I think most British people only encounter religion at Christmas and weddings, unless they're of a religious minority group.

The groups that take it seriously are more likely to observe Diwali or Ramadan.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#867

Post by nickthemagicman »

igorkraw wrote: post #747
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

I prefer Camus personally. The act of rebellion against ...well everything, but in this case against things to worship, against stories that try to hide the absurdity of the universe seems to me a narrative much less likely to be led astray in harmful ways, since it gives you no power or secret insight, only personal despair and personal happiness. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus/ https://en.wikiquote.org/wi…

I love Camus as well. His idea of absurdism really struck a chord with me. We're on this ride in life where we just keep passing through absurd situations.

It's a really comical extension to an existentialism.

"Should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee?"

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#868

Post by throw0101a »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

> I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

It is etymologically correct though: condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown.

* https://www.etymonline.com/word/worship

From the root worth "worth": weorþ "significant, valuable, of value; valued, appreciated, highly thought-of, deserving, meriting; honorable, noble, of high rank.

* https://www.etymonline.com/word/worth

What do you hold in highest regard in your life? Family? Truth/honesty? Happiness? Other? (Saint) Thomas Aquinas said that the four typical substitutes for God are wealth, pleasure, power, and honor.

None of those things are necessarily bad in themselves—some amount are often necessary for life, and can be be used to achieve good things—but chasing them for the sake of themselves without a higher principle to guide you once acquire them has probably caused many people problems over the course of history.

Asking yourself "what is the highest good in my life? what is the thing/princple that I hold in highest esteem? what do I 'worship'?" can be a good spiritual/moral exercise.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#869

Post by pantalaimon »

luxuryballs wrote: post #286
avasylev wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please share which churches you think have solid theology?

Calvary Chapel churches are usually pretty solid.

Like their prediction of Jesus return in 1981?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#870

Post by skissane »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #203
wussboy wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that there is no clear tradition of “cultural Christian” like there is for “atheist Jew”. I don’t believe in God. I love the high church and choral traditions. I attend a church where the minister feels the same. Am I a Christian? No. And yes.

"Cultural Christian" is just what western culture is. "atheist Jews" can exist only because they exist in the cultural Christian west.

> "atheist Jews" can exist only because they exist in the cultural Christian west

There are atheist Jews in Israel. Is Israel part of the "cultural Christian west"?

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