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Stripe bans Trump campaign

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Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#861
post #812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least when it comes to BLM vs Capitol there are three very important differences that far outweigh the surface level similarities: 1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. 2. Message - the BLM protests were about very real and well documen…

>1. Power - what happened at the Capitol was conducted by people who have enjoyed broad political power, whereas the BLM protests were about the people who have been unjustly under the thumb (or knee) of those in power. I don't think this is true at all. There is a lot of resentment out there from poor whites who have been getting the short end of many sticks lately. They may be better off than poor blacks on average…

I completely agree with your point about the power and wealth imbalances in American society today regardless of race. We have growing wealth inequality and that is limiting opportunity relative to what we used to enjoy and is usually destabilizing to societies. It’s bad and getting worse.

It sounds like we generally agree but I also don’t think I did a good job of stating my point about power imbalance. The stated purpose of the gathering at the Capitol was to take power away from other people who voted. It was a demonstration in support of disenfranchisement, in so far as people were there to ‘stop the steal’. And it was done with the support and incitement of the most powerful person in America. BLM has never been about taking peoples rights away, and that’s a huge difference.

It’s also come out that a lot of the people there weren’t exactly poor, we’ve seen lawyers and business owners and cops and a whole bunch of middle class people, flying in and staying at the Hyatt etc. This makes sense, it cost money to get to DC, and the poorest wouldn’t be able to make the trip, and it shows in voter demographics too. I absolutely believe that some of the unrest and dissatisfaction on the right is due to the real economic anxiety arguments that you point out, but I think there’s also something deeper down that is much darker than that - a loss of privileged status that certain voters are experiencing due to changes occurring in America.

This is happening along gender, race, age, education, and economic lines simultaneously. 40+ year old whites that make up the majority of the right grew up with social expectations and experiences that have changed a lot. You used to be able to get a HS or maybe college degree and have a well paying job right there waiting. You used to be able to buy a house. You used to watch TV and see people that look like you. You used to interact with the opposite sex in a particular way. You used to be perfectly healthy. Now you’re older, you’re navigating different gender dynamics, more voices and cultures are coming up and different people are on tv, and you’re now dealing with health issues. Your job, where you used to get paid well and find worth, is not doing that anymore. Your sense of purpose, self-worth, and place in the world is challenged.

Some of this status loss is necessary as America moves forward on gender and race. Some is just the indignity of aging. Some is economic. Put together this loss of status is creating resentment, which is being used by media and demagogues to sow division and feelings of victimhood.

Where on the spectrum these people were of ‘totally manipulated and brainwashed’ vs ‘just here because I’m worried about status loss’ vs ‘conscious support for disenfranchisement and anti-democratic power grabs’, their actions and the implications of those actions at the Capitol were nonetheless something altogether different than past protests & riots.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#862

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

To be honest, I firmly evaluate this behavior as negative irrespectable of the legal issues. It might look clear in the case of Trump. Freedom of speech is something civil society defines and the refusal to let people speak is something I regard very negatively. Never would have thought to say something like this in 2015, but the opposition to Trump looks inept as does this behavior from Stripe. They just didn't have an answer, so they just needed to ban him.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#863
post #857
post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If society has decided that your political campaign is so toxic that no one wants to do business with you, should private entities be forced to deal with you if you are not a protected class? Parler being booted is society's reaction to a movement that has been getting more extreme for the last 5 years. I'll note the irony that many of the people complaining about companies refusing to deal with Parler are the same p…

There are thousands of bakeries out there, but only a handful of payment processors.

If they manage to piss all of them off there's always bank transfer/postal cheque.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's far from over. If this is analogous to the beer hall putsch it can be evaluated in a decade or two perhaps. The very most dangerous thing that could be done right now is to say "glad that's over and nothing happened".

Yea. Now seems like a weird time to declare that fascism hasn’t taken hold, given all the censorship.

Learn from Germany:

Das Grundgesetz der Bundesrepublik Deutschland Artikel 18

Wer die Freiheit der Meinungsäußerung, insbesondere die Pressefreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 1), die Lehrfreiheit (Artikel 5 Abs. 3), die Versammlungsfreiheit (Artikel 8), die Vereinigungsfreiheit (Artikel 9), das Brief-, Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis (Artikel 10), das Eigentum (Artikel 14) oder das Asylrecht (Artikel 16a) zum Kampfe gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung mißbraucht, verwirkt diese Grundrechte.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stripe and Twitter are pretty clearly the latter. They might be the latter, but I wouldn't consider it obvious. Regarding social media, we've gotten to the point where even US Visa applications ask for social media handles (and I understand they consider it as a negative datum if you don't provide one). And we're also at the point where some companies won't provide you with respectable service unless you @ them on…

I don't have a twitter account and login to Facebook once a month. If both went away tomorrow, my life would continue, very much as now. And I think this is true for most people. If my water, power, or internet was cut off, I would immediately suffer real, life changing inconvenience and hardship. To me, the difference between these things is incredibly stark.

If you can't get access to a payment provider, you can't launch a business effectively.

Sex workers face this problem. Even in countries where sex work is legal, the payments industry refuses to deal with them (in part because the chargeback rates are high for these kinds of transactions). They're forced to deal in cash and have all sorts of problems because of it (not least the fact that depositing large amounts of cash triggers money laundering regulations, and doing that too much can cause a bank to close the account).

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stripe and Twitter are pretty clearly the latter. They might be the latter, but I wouldn't consider it obvious. Regarding social media, we've gotten to the point where even US Visa applications ask for social media handles (and I understand they consider it as a negative datum if you don't provide one). And we're also at the point where some companies won't provide you with respectable service unless you @ them on…

Wasn't there a sort-of reverse issue a year or two ago, when the President was blocking people on twitter and a court ruled that he was violating their 1st amendment rights? Is it exclusively because of his office? Could it be construed the other direction?

The First Amendment concerns the government's suppression of speech.

The POTUS is part of the US Government. Twitter is not.

So... no.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#867
post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were cut off from social media, payment processors, web hosts and mail providers, would you practically be able to launch a political campaign?

If society has decided that your political campaign is so toxic that no one wants to do business with you, should private entities be forced to deal with you if you are not a protected class? Parler being booted is society's reaction to a movement that has been getting more extreme for the last 5 years. I'll note the irony that many of the people complaining about companies refusing to deal with Parler are the same p…

There is a clear difference between people clearly going to the same bakery over and over to harass and old guy, and being unable to actually do politics because of the technocrats and their cronies don’t be dishonest and don’t assume things for which you do not have proof. Not only that but if society decides that the Earth is flat would you agree with any decisions stemming from that, assuming there is a thing such as “society deciding” of course. I will note the irony about people saying that we should respect society “decisions” when they didn’t respect Trump becoming president since day one . Come on pal drop the dishonesty.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#868

I was on the fence about this, but reading the comments convinced me it was the absolute right decision. The fact that all these institutions just allowed this horrible hateful speech for four years, in the name of free speech etc, despite all the harassment, harm (mental and otherwise) it caused to so many people in America actually emboldened so many to the extent that now that they crossed this invisible line, the…

What did Trump say/do that called for violence? Why could rioters just go to the capitol? Seeing a dozen news articles the best argument seems to be that the mention of not attending the inauguration was a call for violence. I don't buy it.

> ...not attending the inauguration was a call for violence. I don't buy it.

It's a soft signal, one that really you should be looking at the wider context of the last 4 years and especially the last few months, rather than just in isolation.

And to the mind of someone willing to use violence (such as say, those involved in the capitol riot), it becomes "hey guys, I still believe the election was stolen by those dirty libs and I won't be at this location, so if anything bad happens there, I won't be hurt. Wink Wink, nudge nudge."

We have seen what his base will do. There is no longer a time to discuss hypotheticals, they will storm a goverment office with weapons, they will kill people, they will use IEDs, and they will put the Trump cult ahead of America; because that is what they did, in a Western capital of all places.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#869
post #641

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” — George Orwell, Animal Farm I understand the moves by Stripe, Twitter, and co. However, I would argue that the long term implications set by this precedent are much worse. When the Snowden story first broke back in 2013, many on HN argued that, hey it's all good, I have nothing to hide, and I trust our President. Three short years later, who took…

> If the leader of the free world can be banned from all social media and co, who are based in the very same nation, and who are monopolies, then what hope is there for the rest of us? 1. "leader of the free world" is an incredibly arrogant statement. 2. He can be banned for the same reason that the rest of us can: inciting violence. I'd argue that having equal rules for everyone (or even _stricter_ ones for politici…

Trump called for a March on the Capitol building. This is a very common thing for politicians to do. This does not constitute inciting violence.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#870
I feel like decentralized solution like Bitcoin would solve the problems of responsibility, liability and trust. There needs to be economic incentives and costs throughout the network. You as a processing node can support who ever you want and you can collect fees from them for processing transactions. For example if majority of nodes do not want to process certain transactions from certain individuals or organizations renaming nodes can charge high fees and earn huge profits meanwhile demotivating the sender/s of this transactions.

Satoshi mentioned feeding off of spammers[1] ; basically you farm money from malicious and toxic emails(content) or malicious and toxic transactions. This way you disincentive them to continue with their malicious operations.

[1] https://marc.info/?l=cryptography&m=123290127832572&w=2

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