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US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#861

Some people here are wondering about the implications of this. What this means IMO is that all Chinese investments in SV need to be liquidated at fire sale prices in the next 45 days. Regardless of how people here feel about China this is a huge escalation. The US is inflicting huge losses on Chinese companies for no clear violation of US laws on their part. The pandoras box is now open. Do countries get to do this t…

I'd prefer we reference CCP instead of China to differentiate the Chinese people from their tyrannical rulers.

The laws in America not outright making it illegal for tyrannical organizations who operate concentrate camps and partake in genocide (Uighurs) to have access to our democratic societies and benefit economically doesn't mean it's not something you should stand for - and where the laws likely should exist for that.

Likewise, the CCP would likely just takeover Tesla's operations - maybe paying them, maybe not. The difference in the US, currently at least, is TikTok has options: 1) they don't sell and the ban comes, they don't receive any $x billions compensation, or 2) they understand a ban is likely in the US (and growing other democratic nations) and they make the smarter economic decision of selling for $x billions - maybe at fire sale pricing, however there are many competitors who could still compete and be capable of taking over operations, so perhaps not as low as otherwise it could be.

We're not hurtling towards the abyss, that's fear mongering; you may be right that SV startups may have to divest their China based investors, however that may or may not hurt them - and that would be the result of countering external costs to supporting and allowing CCP that we haven't been adequately accounting for for decades.

This is a strategic political-economic pressure decision to put pressure onto the CCP - notice that we're paying attention and won't stand for the level of abuse and tyrannical behaviours of the that we're becoming more and more aware of.

Economic pressure and preventing access to democratic societies for economic gain IS the graceful way to go about this, rather than allow CCP to gain more reach, access for propaganda for intelligence gathering and manipulation, to then spoil politicians further and become more entrenched in our societies economically and via investments in the most popular apps, etc.

And finally, the CCP isn't suicidal - their $500 billion stimulus you reference was for their own survival as well; they also wouldn't want this system they've been creating getting its fingers strongly into the rest of the world economy (which they depend on to maintain) to collapse, the collapse of which would mean things would shift greatly and more likely away from their own benefit.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#862
post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations A world ruled by corporations headquartered in a single country, with other countries having their politics and economy determined by the interests a single nation has been the rest of the worlds situation for 50+ years. It's somewhat ironic to see Americans suddenly getting concerned about this. > Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese mar…

>The argument that if the Chinese market was fully open then their local companies would have been more quickly devoured by single, US based corporations doesn't do much to convince me that what the Chinese government is doing is wrong. If these companies were competing, and winning, on features and innovation, there would be no concern that the company originated from China. The point of that anecdote is that these…

> Play fair or don't play at all.

Your fallacy is assume that we were previously in a state of "fair play". Viewing the last few decades US global corporate hegemony as "fair play" requires a tremendous ignorance of the methods and impact of US global corporate dominance on most other countries of the world.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#863
post #740
post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to call for a system of fair regulations that provide a level playing field; it's another thing altogether to essentially expropriate a company through executive action because it was doing too well. Your comment makes sense and I mostly agree with it, but not on this submission.

I understand the sentiment but there has to be a first company. Someone has to be the first casualty in forcing China to either open their markets or exit our markets. I do wish this was part of a broader policy instead of a one-off.

The EO on bytedance is forcing Bytedance to sell all global tiktok operations. How is that a reciprocate issue? A reciprocate would be deny tiktok market accesses in US only. But clearly US gov doesn't want bytedance to exist at all. They want to kill it everywhere.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#864

I don't get it. It's US companies standing to loose their stronghold (near monopoly) on social, advertisement, and other forms of monetizing the web if the US creates a precedent for "national security" in this way, as in "we're welcoming social networks and free speech as long as it benefits the US and can be searched without warrant." Quite predictably, governments all over the world will be pressurized to question…

I really think its as simple as Trump hates TikTok because 95% of TikTok users are not Trump supporters. Every thing else is just excuses/rationalization for the ban (although some of the reasons may actually be good, they aren't what Trump cares about)

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just reciprocity? China banned a long list of media companies: FB, Google, YouTube, Twitter, Netflix, and every traditional media. Now the US is banning two apps made in China.

>China banned a long list of media companies That's not a wholly accurate characterisation. The internet is regulated in China, in the same way that broadcast media is regulated in the US. You might vehemently disagree with the specifics of Chinese media regulation, but the regulatory principle is the same. Foreign media companies that choose not to go through the Chinese regulatory system are blocked from operating…

> the regulation of Chinese media is a matter of Chinese sovereignty

And the freedom of that media is a matter of basic human rights.

Your argument can be summarized as saying it's ok for China to deny fundamental human rights (free speech) to Americans as long as it is simultaneously denying those same rights to Chinese people because it's "a matter of Chinese sovereignty." I don't agree. Fundamental human rights are just that, fundamental.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#866
post #845

No one forced American corporations to do business with China. America's current lack of "greatness" is America's own fault. There is a nonzero chance that America is going to face serious economic distress in the coming decade. Those who made poor leadership decisions for America's economy are desperate to find a scapegoat. No one forced American corporations to do business with China.

Your scapegoat narrative is an unproductive one and apologist at worst. As usual, people are getting wrapped up in the "America bad" trope while ignoring the fact that there are real people being targeted and having their lives tracked and terrorized by the Chinese government. I don't know what country you're from but if someone was behaving badly in your house, I would be kicking them out too. You'd have to be stupid to let a burglar in your house and offer them a room.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#867
We needed to do this 10 years ago. If China doesn't open up their economy to us then we shouldn't open up ours to them. Otherwise in 50 years China will have ripped off all of our ideas sold them to a captive audience of 1 billion users, and then used that forced customer based as a springboard to compete on the global stage.

The same thing has happened with our manufacturing techniques that we outsourced to them and now look how that is kicking us in the ass. Globalism is great for a time, but eventually we need to maintain the infrastructure to actually build our own stuff, otherwise it's not sustainable.

I hate Trump, but unfortunately we needed someone like him to do this. I don't think any other politician would have done anything about this. Not sure how to feel about that.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just reciprocity? China banned a long list of media companies: FB, Google, YouTube, Twitter, Netflix, and every traditional media. Now the US is banning two apps made in China.

In one way, yes, it seems like reciprocity, but the impact here seems to be larger than a diplomatic dispute: China is communist, US is free (in terms of public imaging). So in that positioning, while China as a communist, authoritarian nation would be the type to ban online services, the US is supposed to be "better than that." In any case, I think that the result of this is more that TikTok will sell at an even che…

For many Chinese living in America, it's the only way to reliably communicate with family back in China.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#869
post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Once US starts playing China’s game, China has won.

Chinese investors care way more about money than nationalism. Capitalism is brutally efficient, even in the guise of Communism.

Not unless the investor is the government itself

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this just reciprocity? China banned a long list of media companies: FB, Google, YouTube, Twitter, Netflix, and every traditional media. Now the US is banning two apps made in China.

If you claim to stand for free trade, you can't go along in these protectionism wars without losing a lot of credibility and, along with that, soft power.

I stand for free trade, but it's not "free" when trading with a country that doesn't share our values. How someone can advocate for a minimum wage or health and safety protections for a European or US company, but then turn around and advocate trading with a country with no such protections baffles me. There is no outcome except that our economy will become disadvantaged while at the same time encouraging the erosion of democracy and human rights around the world.
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