Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#861

Post by nailer » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:40 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

The issue is that the girl was 17.

Who owned the island is not relevant, how much money they make is not relevant, and whether they're Stallman's friend is not relevant to either the morality or legality of the matter. Being wealthy or old is not a crime.

Stallman's controversial comment was:

> “it is morally absurd to define ‘rape’ in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17.”

Whether you agree or disagree that is a reasonable statement to make.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#862

Post by GaryNumanVevo » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

Sacho wrote: post #767

reuven wrote: post #665

People seem to be saying a variety of things about RMS: He's a genius, so let him be. He doesn't understand interpersonal communication. He didn't say the things people thought he said. People are too quick to judge. And so forth. I was there, about 20 years ago, when he sent e-mail urging all free-software advocates to protest a bill under consideration in the US Congress. I asked him if he had read the bill. "No,"…

Your argument against Stallman seems to hinge on him defending Epstein, which is something he didn't do. He was defending his late friend, Minsky. Specifically, he was unhappy with the language used to describe his conduct evoking imagery worse than the actual conduct.

> worse than the actual conduct

A 74 year old man allegedly has sex with a 17 year old on an island of a known pedophile and sex trafficker.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#863

Post by steveeq1 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #786

mieseratte wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

As far as I understand, there's plenty of real-world horrible conduct he could have got fired for too, which has gone without consequence. This isn't a one-time thing where he never did a bad thing in his life and now is suddenly attacked by a mob. He has been an awful person for a long, long time, and now he is suddenly facing actual consequences.

I'm willing to bet if I went through all your tweets, social media, and personal email, I could find SOMETHING that could have gotten you fired if it ever came to public attention. In fact, I'm sure that's true for just about anybody.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#864

Post by nailer » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #773

cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

There isn't a situation where a 74 year old has sexual contact with a 17 year old on a billionaire's private island in which everyone is willing and happy with what is happening. It is extremely doubtful that a young woman would find herself in that situation in any other way than a long path of abuse and desperation. Taking advantage of that young woman is immoral. That isn't some puritanical, anti-sex philosophy th…

Women and men trade resources for sex all the time. Are you aware of engagement rings?

The only issue here is the age of the girl involved.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#865

Post by steveeq1 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

DagAgren wrote: post #786

mieseratte wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

As far as I understand, there's plenty of real-world horrible conduct he could have got fired for too, which has gone without consequence. This isn't a one-time thing where he never did a bad thing in his life and now is suddenly attacked by a mob. He has been an awful person for a long, long time, and now he is suddenly facing actual consequences.

RMS is an "awful person"? I would say that, he's a hero to a lot of people, including me. He might be "social unskilled", but an AWFUL person? I would say that is untrue in any common sense way.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#866

Post by TomVDB » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #776

cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

It's still legal in large parts of Europe. What I don't get is the US... where the age of consent is I think 16, but everyone's making a huge fuss about the fact that someone was 17. Yes, it was rape and trafficking - that's terrible enough as it is, no need to make it look worse than it is. This is essentially diluting the most terrible crime of abusing young children.

FYI: the age of consent in California is 18.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#867

Post by lone_haxx0r » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:51 PM UTC

reuven wrote: post #665

People seem to be saying a variety of things about RMS: He's a genius, so let him be. He doesn't understand interpersonal communication. He didn't say the things people thought he said. People are too quick to judge. And so forth. I was there, about 20 years ago, when he sent e-mail urging all free-software advocates to protest a bill under consideration in the US Congress. I asked him if he had read the bill. "No,"…

> He's an extremist. He's a purist. He indeed doesn't get the nuances of interpersonal communication.

When people say "getting the nuances of interpersonal communication", they usually mean "Not telling the truth when it may hurt other people's feelings or your own reputation".

It's perfectly reasonable to not not tell the truth —and even lie— in those cases, but I would prefer if you stated this idea like it is.

"Getting the nuances of interpersonal communication" is saying it like one doesn't understand that people don't act rationally and will throw logic completely out of the window when one of their religious ideas gets questioned.

Stallman is not an idiot, he knows he will get shit for saying what he says, he perfectly gets the "nuances" (i.e. irrational behaviour) of personal communication. He just doesn't care about them.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#868

Post by kfrzcode » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

d6e wrote: post #392

kfrzcode wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hesitant to post anything, anywhere, just because I don't want to offend anyone by expressing an earnest opinion. I think the trend's moving more quickly towards self-censorship than anyone realizes. How can we even quantify that? Those who censor just disappear? What stands out for me is the obvious monoculture we're developing. I miss custom PHPBB boards for every little interest and opinion.

Phpbb forums didn't go away because of self censorship, they were simply replaced with bigger sites like Reddit. If you're trying to create a community around a niche topic, a subreddit is substantially easier to create than deploying and maintaining a forum.

But then you're at the whims of a board of shareholders who will decide what is acceptable content.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#869

Post by dmitrygr » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

this is a very very very dangerous viewpoint that you are expressing, and I very much hope that you are over simplifying. Because if you really think that somebody needs to be fired, for stating a point completely unrelated to their job, then that is a problem that we, as a society, need to address urgently.

Everyone is allowed to believe anything they damn well please. They are even allowed to state it. There should not be a viewpoint holding which makes one unemployable. because as soon as that exists, there is no freedom of speech, only a caricature of it.

freedom of speech is not about saying things that everyone agrees with. It is about saying things everyone disagrees with. and yes, speech comes with consequences. But those should be doled out logically, not by an angry mob forcing an institution's hand.

The common argument that I hear is that free speech does not come free of consequences. Fine. But those should be clear and well defined. Not decided by a mob at any given moment. If you want to clearly state that you will not employ anyone who holds the following views, that is okay with me. But firing somebody because the mob demanded it, is against the very idea of freedom of speech

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#870

Post by undersuit » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #776

cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

It's still legal in large parts of Europe. What I don't get is the US... where the age of consent is I think 16, but everyone's making a huge fuss about the fact that someone was 17. Yes, it was rape and trafficking - that's terrible enough as it is, no need to make it look worse than it is. This is essentially diluting the most terrible crime of abusing young children.

The age of consent and the vagaries of how consent can be given varies between states. Some states set the age at 18, and can charge minors under the limit for statutory rape, some states have the age at 16 and allow marriage to children as young as 14 with parental permission...