8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#861

Post by throwawayjava » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #483

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

> My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It should be noted that the United States at the time of the drafting of the Constitution had way way lower rates of education than today. Even as recently as 1945, the median American only had a 10th grade educa…

The United States at the time of the drafting of the Constitution restricted the vote to white male property owners. Even after the constitution, some states restricted voting to white male property owners (about 6% of the population). Even in colonial times, enfranchised citizens were typically at least literate and often well-educated.

> Even as recently as 1945, the median American only had a 10th grade education.

Again, high school diplomas were more common among the enfranchised population.

> But there's no reasonable definition of the term, whereby you can honestly make a case that the America of 1789 was somehow more educated than the the America of 2019.

I would be completely unsurprised if voters in 1789 -- white male property owners -- were far more likely to have studied the enlightenment philosophers.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#862

Post by robomartin » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #802

robomartin wrote: post #574

The part that I concerned with has to do with discoverability. If you push these people underground they will not disappear. That has never happened in the history of humanity. I would much rather the exist in plain view, free to voice their hatred in plain view. I would much rather the algorithms and people of sound mind monitor these individuals and groups in broad daylight than have them exist behind encrypted rad…

Precisely because this is happening in plain sight, various members of our family, myself included, have been engaging with him to try and pull him out of Plato’s proverbial cave. This task is incredibly difficult. [...] It's enormously difficult to deal with even for a family member that you know fairly well. Now imagine trying to deal with it at scale where you're trying to reach (likely) complete strangers who are…

I'm assuming you are echoing my case for making sure they do their business in the open. Or did I misread you?

In our particular case there violence isn't of concern at all. It's just an older man getting pulled into a dark corner full of hateful messaging. This is having negative consequences as friends and some family don't want to be around that kind of negativity.

In other words, our older family member's case is more about FB effectively destroying his quality of life than him becoming a problem for someone else. It's really sad to watch.

With regards to your comment about it being harder to intercede in the case of complete strangers. Yes, absolutely agreed, it's nearly impossible with someone you've known your entire life I could not imagine what it might take to "reprogram" a complete stranger.

My assumption, when it comes to the case of random strangers, wasn't that someone would necessarily intercede to try and play amateur psychologist. What I would expect is for law enforcement to become involved, bring experts into the fold and deal with each case as necessary. I am not a psychologist, so I can't even being to presume to know how or if this could be done.

My other assumption is that the task is much easier when the conversations happen in the open. That said, I am not in law enforcement, I could be completely wrong, it might be the case that the various agencies can do a better job when these people think they are invisible. I don't know.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#863

Post by puskavi » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:10 AM UTC

Lets drive hatey-sites to deepweb where we can't cencor them! What a great idea!

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#864

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:12 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #215

This once again goes to show that you can do nothing illegal and still be virtually locked out of the internet. The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure". Take from that what you will. People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platf…

[deleted]

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#865

Post by throwawayjava » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:32 AM UTC

odessacubbage wrote: post #775

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

'My opinion is that women's bodily autonomy is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires women who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of a fetus or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the…

Most pro-choice people do believe that education is important to women's (bodily) autonomy.

And abortions are not "universally understood to be reprehensible".

Only a minority of the country believes that abortion is universally reprehensible, and the rest draw various lines between "universally" and "never".

The country is very divided on the morality of abortion.

The country is not very divided on the morality of shooting up a WalMart.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#866

Post by guamcable » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:34 AM UTC

MrLeap wrote: post #712

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument effectively says: 'people are too stupid to be trusted with their freedom'. I get that this is an unpopular opinion, but bad things will happen if people are to be free.

Back in the 90's I think ours was the popular opinion. It's gross to see it fade so fast. I get companies taking a stand for who they accept as a customer. It makes me feel really icky when I see suggestions that the first amendment get even more asterisks next to it.

[flagged]

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#867

Post by storco » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

This is a non issue.

The first amendment says "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech". It's a limit on government. CloudFlare has no duty to provide 8chan hosting, and their denial of services is very unlikely to be considered discrimination against a protected class.

System working as intended.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#868

Post by jeanvalmarc » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

This seems like a good move, and the opposite of a slippery, "government restricted our free speech" slope. It's more like, "companies and individuals are under no obligation to offer their services to people they perceive to be assholes." The reason governments shouldn't do this is because there is no alternative. Companies and individuals are the right place to make an individual choice about what they wish to endorse, host, and support.

People (i.e. the Cloudflare CEO saying "no one should have this power") wishing the government would let them off the moral hook for hosting literal Nazis is pretty absurd.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#869

Post by arwineap » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:55 AM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #345

arwineap wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing cloudfront is not really a platform. It's more like a CDN, or WAF. I think your point is worth discussing, just seems to link less to the context of 8chan. > We need to allow people on the edges of the spectrum to say what they want even if it is without merit. Extreme speech is what prevents normal speech from being censored. I wonder if the anonymo…

I used the word "platform" because that's what others are saying. What I really mean to say is "infrastructure".

Turns out their ISP dropped out too. I'll go ahead and eat my words now :)

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#870

Post by ibejoeb » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:59 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #820

the_reformation wrote: post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American Constitution argues free speech is a human right, not granted to us by government, but by nature. Even if some all-seeing deity could build a more optimal society by restricting the free speech of some group, this would be a moral wrong because all humans have an inherent right to free speech. Ultimately this isn't very relevant because right to free speech does not mean a right to web hosting infrastruc…

>The American Constitution argues free speech is a human right, not granted to us by government, but by nature. The American Constitution doesn't argue anything about free speech, define it or make claims about its origin, or even refer to is as a right, much less a "natural" right. It only declares that Congress (explicitly, and exclusively, meaning not even inclusive of any other governing body or private entities)…

I don't understand. Are you suggesting that another branch of government is therefor able to restrict that freedom? That would fundamentally challenge the co-equality of the branches.

GP's point is that the constitution serves not to grant the freedom of speech, but to restrict the government from curtailing it.