Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#861

Post by akvadrako » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #603

tjr225 wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 - docker works flawlessly on macos 4 - i cant think of a single application, outside of maybe xcode, a developer might need to sign into the app store for 6 - whatever reasons that youtuber might have for not using macbooks, i will never buy a non-mac notebook ever again. this 2013 13" mbp has been the best and most reliable computer I have ever had in 30 years and I bought it used! 7 - sure the apple brand is cool…

> docker works flawlessly on macos He said nothing about "fine". Docker on Mac is through a VM and thus not native. Containerization in MacOS is impossible without a VM.

Containers, sandboxes and zones are all different names for the same thing. macOS and iOS actually have quite good sandboxing support.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#862

Post by fnord123 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

scottmf wrote: post #734

fnord123 wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does Linux give you that macOS doesn’t? perf, case sensitive file systems, non stupid alt-tab behaviour, strace, pstack, gdb (these don't seem to work without sacrificing animals), gnome-shell (better than finder by a long way, imo). I've got a mac. I don't install programs except for things through brew. It's basically shitty linux with outlook.

Alt-tab behavior is more of a preference thing. >It's basically shitty linux with outlook. Linux is shitty Linux. Except on the server. (IMO, of course).

I can accept that alt-tab is a preference if you want to use alt-tab and alt-`. It's heresy to prefer alt-`, but whatever -the vim-spaces-only(but automated code formatters are best and I dont care what they use)-alt-tabbers will eventually win out.

But on multiple desktops if you alt-tab to the previous application again, it only brings up the application windows in the current screen instead of bringing you to the last window you used (on another screen). Wrong! Broken! Sad!

Also, on mac alt-tab raises ALL the application windows. So if you have shed loads of terminal windows or loads of browser windows open, then alt-tab brings them all to the front. This is definitely broken since it stops common workflows like copying between windows; or finding some text that you want to type into a terminal and then alt tabbing to the terminal only to have the screen covered in terminal windows. SAD.

Mac is low energy (That's the reason I think I have it for a laptop).

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#863

Post by viraptor » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

fnord123 wrote: post #857

viraptor wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perf, strace, and pstack can be replaced with dtrace on MacOS. You can have a case-sensitive position. (Separate from root so it doesn't break some apps)

Do you need to add dtrace to the key chain each time it's updated or do they just not update it like most of their command line software?

What do you mean "add dtrace to the key chain"? I've never done anything related to keychain while using dtrace.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#864

Post by npunt » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #847

simonh wrote: post #72

AMD has the rights to produce x86 compatible CPUs. If Apple were to design the chips but AMD manufactured them on contract, would that avoid IP/licensing issues with Intel?

Yes. I am finding it almost bemusing that people are dancing so delicately around the only rational possibility here: A semi-custom AMD-produced x86-64 CPU, very much like the Samsung-produced A-series ARM CPUs for their phones and tablets. I see zero reason that the next Axxxx chip cant be a rebranded Zen core with Vega GPU and custom Apple IP magic sprinkled in - https://www.amd.com/en-us/solutions/semi-custom Just…

That’s a lot of fuss for at best a lateral shift, and a step down in the all-important performance-per-watt metric (Zen and Vega are totally unproven here).

You may be underestimating the possible paths Apple has to a) transition software developers quickly with better tooling, and b) provide sufficiently performant JIT / compatibility layer by sprinkling a bit of x86 compatibility into future A-series chips, and you’re certainly underestimating the value in c) reducing complexity on the software-side.

Apple is already making their own GPU and CPU and throwing all their weight behind that, why would they hop onto the (brilliant but rather unreliable and on mobile totally unproven) AMD train?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#865

Post by iaml » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #473

sneak wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- decent video calling - imessage (signal is getting warmer, but the integration is still lacking) - adobe creative suite - video editing - audio production apps - photo management and post processing (darktable is still garbage) - sleep/wake and connecting/disconnecting external displays - not-ugly fonts

It’s kind of funny to compare Linux vs. macOS if your experience of macOS primarily comes from using a Hackintosh. (No sleep/wake support for me! Unplugging my HDMI cable causes a hard-reboot! Etc.) Which is to say: Linux is pretty good on Macs, whereas macOS is pretty broken (after weeks of intense debugging with other Hackintosh folks) on hardware that would run Linux just fine.

OP is nodding to infamous problems with actual macs freezing and rebooting when waking if external displays are connected, which is a pretty common occurrence on high sierra devices.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#866

Post by EnderMB » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:27 AM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #702

sreque wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a software developer, and I detest working on my mac laptop. At $lastjob I had a Linux desktop and it is, I believe, the most productive environment I have ever developed in. The job before, I had a windows desktop, and I prefer that to mac. You say you want to just "get things done expediently," but in my experience apple software is flat out inferior and OSX is the worst of the 3 major operating systems I have…

I was with you until the "I preferred Windows" part. Windows right now is the most infuriating piece of software I can imagine for a developer. Forced upgrades? Forced advertisement? Gigantic, expensive SDKs with incomprehensible versioning and install times measured in hours, no standard library installation facilities, no standard build facilities, a default compiler that is markedly inferior to the alternatives, i…

No idea where you're getting most of this from.

I was a C# developer as recently as 2017, and I'd say that I prefer Windows 10 to OSX as a development environment, but going through your points:

* Upgrades are handled by the system administrator at most companies, so it's unlikely that automatic upgrades will be set up if you've got anyone remotely competent handling your IT. * I can't say I've ever seen an advert when working on Windows. There's some Cortana crap, but that takes a few seconds to click away, and you'll never see it again. It's no different to your standard desktop setup for OSX or Linux. * If you're a .NET dev, it's extremely unlikely that you're paying for the OS or the platform, in the same way that you're not paying for OSX. Admittedly, Microsoft tools take an age to set up, but the latest versions of .NET and Visual Studio are much quicker - if anything, I spend far more time upgrading/installing stuff on OSX. Hell, sometimes setting something up on Homebrew will take longer than a standard Windows installation for a given tool. * I'm yet to see a Windows machine, outside of a brand-new one, set up without the necessary .NET framework. If it's not on there, Visual Studio will install it for you. Again, not an issue. * Not sure what you mean by build tools and a default compiler - IMO building/compiling is ridiculously easy for .NET apps, either through the command line or through Visual Studio.

In my view, as someone who has worked on all three sides (OSX, Linux (Debian), and Windows) I'd say that Windows is just as capable as the other platforms for its main use cases. Where Windows struggles is in its differences. It's a very different experience, and people from each side struggle to make the switch, and it's a switch where you feel that you can run before you can walk at times. You have your own way of doing things efficiently, but even though you're looking to do something similar on a different stack you're using entirely different tools.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#867

Post by npunt » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:31 AM UTC

JohnTHaller wrote: post #508

For everyone speculating that this means a move to ARM and they'll write an emulator for x86 code, it's good to note that the first Windows tablet based on ARM, the $1,000 HP Envy x2, has pretty terrible performance for x86 code when running on a Snapdragon 835. The Celeron N3450 launched almost 2 years ago found in super low end $200 Windows laptops outperforms it by ~50%. And ARM on Windows can only run 32-bit apps…

Good data point, though they may have just not invested much in writing a good emulator, let alone dedicating some extra silicon to speeding it up. If Apple makes this shift, my strong suspicion is they’d do both.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#868

Post by FabHK » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:33 AM UTC

nunez wrote: post #805

stiGGG wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my second to last company (a web development shop), they had originally the policy that a new developers can choose if he want either a mac, linux or windows machine. When i arrived there it was 75% mac and the rest used linux, not even one had made the choice for windows. After a while some new guys get hired and one of them wanted to use windows. We found out immediately, that this caused a lot of problems, beca…

I would have been pretty upset with that. Unless you're writing machine-native code, development environments should work on anything, especially if they run on VMs deployed by Vagrant.

I’ve had problems even getting anaconda (scientific python distro) to work in a VM on windows (because the file system of the host OS lacks certain UNIXy features).

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#869

Post by BuildTheRobots » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:39 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #144

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, their PPC-on-Intel emulation that let old versions run of apps (and the entirety of OS9, IIRC) was a technical marvel on a number of levels - especially considering the hardware limitations of the early chips.

Mac OS 9 never ran on Intel. That was a separate migration path, where Mac OS X would run a Mac OS 9 VM, but this "Classic" experience never made it past PPC.

My apologies, I'm remembering wrong.

On PPC you could either dual-boot or run OS9 (and 8?) apps seamlessly on an OSX desktop, which was pretty impressive.

The seamless emulation of OSX-PPC apps on an Intel processor was extremely impressive though. I remember the majority of stuff working surprisingly well with little slowdown (though this might now be rose-tinted).

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#870

Post by Arn_Thor » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 9:51 AM UTC

wbl wrote: post #403

djrogers wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close, but Apple already produces it's own WiFi/BT chipsets (the S1/S2 etc SOCs in Apple watches for example, and the W1 chipset in AirPods and new Beats headphones), and is rumored to be working on an LTE/GSM chipset. I think Apple is intensely interested in controlling the entire stack.

Why? A lot of these parts are commodetized. Are they really getting that much better battery life from their own stuff?

Absolutely! That's why the Apple Watch, for example, is an unqualified success compared with any other wearable. Qualcomm, which is the only real rival in that space, hasn't come out with a new wearable-sized SOC in forever, leading to the downright abandonment of many wearable product lines from pretty much everyone except Apple.