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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#861

Post by [deleted] »

ghort wrote: post #776
peacetreefrog wrote: post #308

It's crazy to see such overtly anti free speech arguments in the discussion around this memo, even on Hacker News. "Well actually, the first amendment only protects against government intruding on free speech, it doesn't apply to the rest of us!" Free speech used to be the thing everyone agreed on. It's like a fundamental tenant of Western, liberal democracy has gone out of vogue.

Not sure what you are saying. It is the first amendment that grants the right to fire people you don't agree with. So presumably not everyone agrees on what free speech is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_...

[deleted]

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#862

Post by Chris2048 »

nancye wrote: post #363

I'm not one to root for people to be fired for holding what I'd consider dumb or ill-informed opinions, but at the same time, as a woman, do I actually want to work on a team with someone who thinks I'm biologically unsuited to the job I'm doing and who is presumably judging my work more harshly and waiting for me to fail at things, who may have the power to review me poorly and affect my long-term career prospects?…

> do I actually want to work on a team with someone who thinks I'm biologically unsuited to the job

Is that what the memo says? It seems to me to talk about statistical differences - a woman in tech is not representative of women in general, which seems to be the point of the memo.

> who is presumably judging my work more harshly

Should we assume historic discrimination means women will judge men more harshly? Black people will judge white people more harshly etc. I find the managerial bias argument to be a slippery slope.

> people who treat you like that

Aren't you making unwarranted assumptions about the memo author?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#863

Post by socrates1998 »

This is one of the big reasons why I don't work for a large corporation, your value to them is really limited, so they can fire you for any reason they want.

The guys memo may have been wrong on some things, but I don't know why you should fire a guy for bringing up something.

This is mainly about virtue signaling. Google wants to let the world know that it isn't sexist, so it gets this guy to be the scapegoat.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#864

Post by jmorphy88 »

williamaadams wrote: post #443
jmorphy88 wrote: post #309

1) why is it a moral imperative to have 50/50 gender balance in a company? 2) why is it wrong to have a non-diverse company?

Here's the minority's perspective: 1) Why is it required that there can be no more than 20% women in a tech company? 2) Why is it required to have a minimally diverse company? If you look at these two questions and just say "hah! that's not the same thing at all!", then that's why.

Well, they're not the same thing, because nobody is claiming 20% women and minimal diversity is a moral imperative. There aren't executive-level staff in major corporations who are paid handsomely to ensure a 20% female staff. If you're arguing there is some kind of secret covenant amongst the shadowy bro-network for a fixed 20% women quota and minimal diversity, you'd need to provide some proof of that. Aside from that you haven't really addressed the questions I asked.

I've noticed a real inability (or perhaps disinclination) to speak about these issues in a straightforward way.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#865

Post by yogaboll »

jezclaremurugan wrote: post #794
lazyjones wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. Is this really an honest assessment? I haven't yet seen a single reply to the manifesto that addresses its points and counters the supposedly "lousy arguments" in a neutral tone and objective manner. Please point me to one if you have...

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... - this qualifies for me

Quote from the article:

if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect,¹ and flies directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades, they should go for it. But I am neither a biologist, a psychologist, nor a sociologist, so I’ll leave that to someone else.

This article specifically avoids countering the original article point-by-point. I would love to see an article or comment that does that.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#867

Post by peoplewindow »

clairity wrote: post #562

just reading quickly through the document (memo? manifesto? commentary?), it's obviously highly political, both in positional language and ideological couching. the author may believe he is being completely logical in his thinking, but it's full of post-hoc rationalization. * disappointed * should the guy have been fired? probably. it's political and divisive and disrupts the workplace. but he'll bounce back. it's no…

He didn't write a public document. He wrote an internal document that was then leaked - without a doubt by his ideological enemies.

Hiring policy is something Google has always encouraged its employees to debate. Not any more, of course.

This guy didn't do things wrong, not by the standards of the old Google at least. He raised deep questions about Google's internal culture which absolutely affects their business, in a private document intended for his colleagues (who are ultimately the creators of any companies culture).

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#868

Post by richmarr »

cmsj wrote: post #745
slackingoff2017 wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…

Might be worth remembering that companies like Google have significant links with education systems, so they can address their hiring not just at the "who is applying" stage. Also, regarding "lowering the bar" - remember there is a lot more to building a SWE team than finding people who can do the best whiteboard coding challenges. Coding skills can be improved, diversity of backgrounds is also a team strength and on…

There's a pretty convincing argument that the drop in apparent interest in computing from girls was caused by computers and computer games being marketed squarely at boys:

https://qz.com/911737/silicon-valleys-gender-gap-is-the-resu...

The arguments that there are fundamental differences between men and women doesn't seem to prevent much higher proportions of female programmers in India, or Romania, or China.

As Adam Grant says, while there are some (small) differences between men and women, they're "not biologically determined"

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/differences-between-men-women...

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#869

Post by lerpa »

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #714
tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…

> I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory

Or maybe women just enjoy doing different kind of things than men.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#870

Post by sebtoast »

GrantSolar wrote: post #824
nikolay wrote: post #815

A company that claims to embrace diversity does not tolerate a diverse opinion - right or wrong. I can understand why San Fran is so anti-conservative, but I cannot accept this blatant hypocrisy of being so intolerant and even aggressive towards those who dare to divert! Companies like Google do something worse than censorship - they induce self-censorship, which is something that even the Commies failed to accomplis…

>I cannot accept this blatant hypocrisy of being so intolerant and even aggressive towards those who dare to divert! This is not about purging the company of people with different ideologies. This is about a person who thought it was appropriate to publicly question not just the ability of their co-workers, but whether they are fundamentally capable of performing. Regardless of the accuracy of his statements, this wa…

I read somewhere that apparently the document wasn't meant to be public, it was sent to a select group by the author and got leaked. So I wouldn't say it's a "public" document.
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