Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

admin.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

851–860 of 891 posts

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#851

Post by amadeuspagel »

kuerbel wrote: post #348
bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

Also swiss here. So many people seem to think that this is about refugees. Wrong. It's about Europeans. Mostly Germans. They are educated and highly skilled and for some swiss, that's a problem. They blame them for not finding a job or an appartement. Just read the comments on inside paradeplatz, you can translate with any llm, on a post about the referendum. A subset of the swiss Middle class has decided that they d…

Blaming immigration for not finding an apartment is very different from blaming immigration for not finding a job. Jobs appear almost automatically (if some basic economic conditions are met), apartments have to be built and permitted.

Blaming immigration for not finding an apartment is also different from blaming immigrants. Blame has a moral connotation, and certainly no individual deserves blame because he lives in an apartment that you'd like to live in, whether he moved from another country, another place in the same country or another district of the same city, or whether he was born in that apartment. But that doesn't mean that immigration can't make it more difficult to find an apartment if not enough apartments are built.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#852

Post by fractallyte »

ninjagoo wrote: post #838
fractallyte wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I counter you with soil degradation, which is gradual (over decades, even centuries), and extremely difficult to reverse (millennia). We may yet discover that Malthus was right. Then what?? https://eu.boell.org/en/SoilAtlas-soil-degradation https://earth.org/95-of-the-earths-soil-on-course-to-be-degr... https://www.fao.org/about/meetings/soil-erosion-symposium/ke...

> We may yet discover that Malthus was right. We may also discover that einstein-rosen bridges exist [1] or that aliens exist or that magic is real or that astrology works. Hopefully none of these things are keeping you up at night. Also, broken clocks, twice a day right, etc etc. Clocks still broken. > Then what?? Plenty of dystopian sci-fi available for your reading/viewing pleasure. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.or…

And precisely how is that relevant to soil science?

You're ridiculing subjects you clearly don't understand.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#853

Post by mike_hearn »

eqvinox wrote: post #829
mike_hearn wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just compare the British economy with that of France, or its own prior trajectory. Very similar economies, neighbours, one stayed in and the other left. France establishes there was no unexpected growth surge Britain missed out on. Continuing on the prior trajectory establishes there was no direct negative impact from leaving. Put them together and there's your answer.

Surely, somebody else has done that and either posted about it or even submitted an academic paper in some economy journal. Do you have any links? [Ed.: nevermind, https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexits-impact-on-the-uk-economy/ does what you described & it very much indicates an economic impact. You'll of course claim it's biased. Feel free to back that up with your own links to analysis.]

There's no point submitting papers to academic journals given that the entire economics profession systematically lied about Brexit for years. Even Paul Krugman has publicly admitted, in writing in the New York Times, that the profession has been manipulating the public for ideological purposes:

> "What we’re hearing overwhelmingly from economists is the claim that [voting leave] will also have severe short-run adverse impacts. And that claim seems dubious. Or maybe more to the point, it’s a claim that doesn’t follow in any clear way from standard macroeconomics — but it’s being presented as if it does. And I worry that what we’re seeing is a case of motivated reasoning, which could end up damaging economists’ credibility."

Your link is an example of what Krugman was talking about. It's a press release about the NBER paper. It's not doing what I described, it uses an invalid methodology. It:

• Compares Britain to a synthetic country primarily based on the USA and Estonia, i.e. a country with a massive tech industry and a fast-growing ex-Soviet state still catching up from the damage caused by decades of communism. Notably missing: France and Germany. Then it assumes any underperformance in this correlation must be caused by Brexit. This assumption is invalid.

• Argues that if it hadn't left Britain would have had a sudden growth spurt out of nowhere that would have made it by far the fastest growing economy in the G7 outside of the US, leaving the rest of the EU in the dust. From where??

• Argues that if it had stayed British unemployment would be 4pp lower, but the current unemployment rate is 4% so they think staying in the EU would have reduced British unemployment literally to zero. Not a single unemployed person anywhere.

The paper can't even be described as biased, really. It's straightforward manipulation of the public. Anyone can "discover" any impact they like if they're allowed to make absurd assumptions about the counterfactual.

You can find other papers written outside of academia that are much more honest:

https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Perspectives_5...

> Contrary to initial concerns, Brexit has not had a major detrimental effect on UK–EU trade. Trade data doesn’t support the Office for Budget Responsibility’s claims that Brexit has caused significant negative impacts on the UK economy.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#854

Post by tpm »

ericmay wrote: post #788
tpm wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treaty law just doesn't work with 'common sense and social conventions' any more than compilers that won't compile your 'common sense and social conventions' text. You have to say exactly what you want, nothing more, nothing less. That's the work of lawyers and negotiators. As my lawyer friends say, well-written agreements make good friends (and vice versa). But also note that you are the only one against Spain creat…

> But also note that you are the only one against Spain creating a path for a group of people that live there to gain legal status. Nah I have an issue with it too, conceptually. You're basically rewarding bad actors for breaking rules and laws which is unfair to those who were and are trying to immigrate legally. At a minimum. Immigration isn't a moral good, it's just a switch we can flip on or off. Too few people?…

I'm probably missing something but your last sentence doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the post. If it's just paperwork then surely nothing bad happens not following it (mostly because it's just not possible to immigrate lawfully to most countries in this age).

Note that I'm not defending unlawful immigrants; but once you spend a large amount of life in a country and you did nothing bad I don't see any issue with said country allowing you to stay. It's just acknowledging the status quo. Of course having a safe legal path to residency is obviously much better but too many politicians today as well as in the past are incentivised to disallow that.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#855

Post by joe_mamba »

dh2022 wrote: post #844
joe_mamba wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't go on lengthy off-topic rants just to put words in my mouth to disprove things I never claimed. I never claimed Romania would have been better under Russian than the EU. I just asked you to show me that your claimed "help" they gave to Romania came from a selfless position without any financial strings attached in return for said help, because it wasn't. Corporations in US, Germany, Austria, France, prof…

The GP provided the examples of free help Romania got from EU. The reason the response is long is because you asked more questions. Here is something you did not bring up: nobody is forcing Romanians to buy EU goods. Romanians also buy a lot of Chinese and Korean goods. EU companies who make money off Romanian consumers compete with Chinese companies. The fact that there are very few things made in Romania is not due…

>The GP provided the examples of free help Romania got from EU

Did we read the same comment? What help that was for free did he mention? Meaning help that Romania never paid back in kind by other ways.

>The fact that there are very few things made in Romania

Again you bring in more whataboutism offtopic shit that I or anyone else here never mentioned on this topic.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#856

Post by foldr »

logancbrown wrote: post #808
foldr wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an option, but it takes a long time to train and recruit locally, costs a lot of money, and you'll probably have to increase salaries to get the required numbers. If there were an easy and cheap way to recruit all the required staff locally, that would already be happening.

So the solution is to import uneducated and non-certified individuals from other countries at lower pay and hope you can pay them less and teach them? As if that is any easier? Sounds like the only reason is so health conglomerates can provide lower pay.

No, you can import educated and certified healthcare workers, as many European countries, including Switzerland, have been doing for a long time. It’s easier and cheaper, which is why everyone’s doing it.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#857

Post by amunozo »

logancbrown wrote: post #810
amunozo wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fertility rates are low and people are ageing, like everywhere in Europe. There will be a moment that simply there won't be enough workers. The reality is that there is already a lack of healthcare professional even without a population cap that would only get worse given the case.

Sounds like modern slavery, import people from poorer countries to tend to the rich and elderly in countries that made short-term sacrifices to not build a future for themselves independently.

Import people from poorer countries with a salary of 100k CHF and wonderful life conditions. Anyway, what I mean is that it's nor worth it for Switzerland, in my opinion, to break the agreements with the EU to limit the population artificially to a random number.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#858

Post by joe_mamba »

202508042147 wrote: post #600
joe_mamba wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks, energy, telecom, defence, oil & gas companies had to be sold to French, German and Austrian companies for below market value, so those countries would lift their veto. Same with joining NATO TBF. We had to buy some overpriced shoddy used F-16 from the US with a lot of miles on the clock, for the same price of brand new Swedish Gripens just so the US would accepts us in NATO. So if history does indeed repeat it…

I'm surprised to read this on HN. Normally I stay away from this crap, but today I'll bite: the Romanian government did very well to sell Romtelecom, BCR and others. And I hope they'll sell more, like Tarom and other money sinks.

Agree, but I was talking about something else, not Romtelecom or Tarom.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#859

Post by eqvinox »

mike_hearn wrote: post #853
eqvinox wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely, somebody else has done that and either posted about it or even submitted an academic paper in some economy journal. Do you have any links? [Ed.: nevermind, https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexits-impact-on-the-uk-economy/ does what you described & it very much indicates an economic impact. You'll of course claim it's biased. Feel free to back that up with your own links to analysis.]

There's no point submitting papers to academic journals given that the entire economics profession systematically lied about Brexit for years. Even Paul Krugman has publicly admitted, in writing in the New York Times, that the profession has been manipulating the public for ideological purposes: > "What we’re hearing overwhelmingly from economists is the claim that [voting leave] will also have severe short-run adver…

> You can find other papers written outside of academia that are much more honest:

> https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Perspectives_5...

> Catherine McBride […] is a fellow of the Centre for Brexit Policy

https://www.desmog.com/centre-brexit-policy/

The Centre for Brexit Policy (CBP) is a pro-Brexit, free-market thinktank

Source rejected due to bias, please provide another one.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#860

Post by wat10000 »

deaux wrote: post #837
wat10000 wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is not actually "potentially a little more of something there's already lots of," but rather that the shittiness of people is not well correlated with what country they're from. I'm sure Switzerland has plenty of shitty locals, even if it might manifest in a different way. The reason I'm not afraid of Afghan refugees moving in isn't because I think their love of Sharia law will be drowned out by my other nei…

>but rather that the shittiness of people is not well correlated with what country they're from. Would you say it even doesn't correlate in the US with what church they go to? Whether they go to a Fundamentalist Baptist church or are Quakers? I find that hard to imagine to be true in a meaningful way. And if it can be, then it can also hold for villages, cities and countries. >I'm sure Switzerland has plenty of shitt…

As far as their desirability as neighbors, I have no idea how it correlates to church membership. I mostly don’t know what churches, if any, my neighbors go to. The old Trump-loving Catholics who used to live next door were fine neighbors. I don’t know the religious proclivities of anyone else in the neighborhood that I can think of.
Post reply on HN