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Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

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Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#851

Post by LorenPechtel »

7952 wrote: post #233
dlubarov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

There isn't a real solution. Just an opportunity for a few years of peace where people can do the important things in life. That is no small thing though. The danger is in chasing some quixotic nationalist dream. That is never ever going to work out.

The more of the Hamas stuff Israel breaks now the longer they will have peace later.

And you think they should just walk away from the hostages? If Hamas released the hostages the world would soon make Israel quit. But as it stands why in the world should they be expected to give up?

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#852

Post by bko »

Cornbilly wrote: post #805
rf15 wrote: post #572

It is incredibly interesting how the US (and Germany) have put so much into Israel and associated groups they really don't want it to fail (despite the Israeli gov doing their damnest to facilitate just that). In my understanding Israel, in the eyes of the US, is a convenient "wedge" in the Arab space that allows for easier power projection in the area, plus they have a healthy amount of zionists close to money and p…

The current US administration also derives a lot of its support from evangelical Christians, who have a belief that Israel must exist in order for Jesus to return to earth. Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen…

I don't think you have to be an evangelical Christian to belief that Israel should exist. I think a lot of people not heavily invested in politics or world affairs simply see Israel as more of a Western country aligned with their values and beliefs and want them to exist.

> Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen…

I'm not sure if Israel ceased to exist there would be less killing and lying. In the first order effect maybe. But if you let a terrorist state control an area, that's obviously not good for global stability. But then again it might be self contained, kind of like a backwards place that exists in its own bubble.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#853

Post by names_are_hard »

Jgoauh wrote: post #834
Jgoauh wrote: post #758

i'm ashamed of how long it took, i don't even know what words to use to explain that life matters, that all lives have the same value, and that death is bad

its crazy the number of people downvoting me for this, sadly i will not compromise on my beliefs

I didn't downvote you but I can understand people who did - your comment doesn't add meaningfully to the conversation because it doesn't add any new ideas or food for thought that the reader doesn't already have. It just expresses your frustration with the state of affairs.

While there is a place for that kind of comment in certain kinds of conversations, many people come to Hacker News to engage in curious and enlightening conversation instead of emotional echo chambers present elsewhere on the Internet.

By contrast, check out this sub thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45259553#45273473

I upvoted a number of comments there with opposing viewpoints because I appreciated that they made me think about things in a deeper way than I had previously, while avoiding anger or insults.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#854

Post by natch »

therobots927 wrote: post #787
natch wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Think whatever you want. The tide of public opinion is turning against Israel and their American benefactors.

Of course it is. It’s the resources of 2 billion people against the resources of 20 million people, driven by goals of religious domination by the larger side.

Just taking the US example, this is the same public who were gullible enough to think that Donald and Kamala were good candidates. Of course their opinion is swayed by that much propaganda.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#855

Post by dlubarov »

goatlover wrote: post #666
dlubarov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

The Iron Dome prevents most of the rocket attacks. Gaza has no protection against what has become indiscriminate Israeli bombing.

Air defense alone isn't really a sustainable military strategy against endless rocket attacks. It would become even less viable if Israel lost US military aid, lifted the blockade, and/or stopped bombing things like rocket factories.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#856

Post by LorenPechtel »

Braxton1980 wrote: post #270
dlubarov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

Israel needs to take a more precise approach to getting rid of Hamas.

People keep saying that but nobody proposes a meaningful more precise approach. There are plenty of military planners in nations hostile to Israel, if there is a better answer why are they not pointing it out to make Israel look bad?

And look at Israel vs Hezbollah--Hezbollah makes little use of human shield tactics, casualties run in the ballpark of 90% combatant. Same force, same type of opponent, what's the difference in Gaza? Hamas makes very heavy use of human shield tactics and worse. We see 30-50% combatants. That implies that the majority of the deaths are because of Hamas.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#857

Post by doron »

isr wrote: post #534
sfink wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.

There's no way of supporting Israel without supporting this current genocide. Literally no way. Because this current genocide is the logical outcome of what Israel is. And was explained as such, in detail, by David Ben Gurion and Golda Mier. Decades ago. Albert Einstein added his name to a famous letter to the NY Times in the late 40's, in which EXACTLY THIS was explained, in plain & uncompromising language, in the v…

The moral position then for those who oppose it, is to allow those who wish to leave Gaza into countries that support the Palestinian people. Ireland and Spain come to mind, Qatar as well could take it thousands, they have the money.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#858

Post by LorenPechtel »

goatlover wrote: post #666
dlubarov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

The Iron Dome prevents most of the rocket attacks. Gaza has no protection against what has become indiscriminate Israeli bombing.

If Israeli bombing really were indiscriminate how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments?

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#859

Post by doron »

tehjoker wrote: post #519
sfink wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.

This isn't right, though it can feel like an option when you are looking for a solution that doesn't make you feel bad. Zionism is the idea of colonial occupation. The internal logic will always end in ethnic cleansing. It did in 1948. It's doing it now. American Manifest Destiny had a similar function, and it also resulted in massive genocide for which we have not atoned. Zionism is done. A secular democratic state…

Zionism is a progressive cause that suffers from its success. It transformed victims into sovereigns, now recast as privileged colonial occupiers.

Isn't the very goal of "progress" in progressive to move away from victimhood to self-determined?

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#860

Post by therobots927 »

natch wrote: post #854
therobots927 wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think whatever you want. The tide of public opinion is turning against Israel and their American benefactors.

Of course it is. It’s the resources of 2 billion people against the resources of 20 million people, driven by goals of religious domination by the larger side. Just taking the US example, this is the same public who were gullible enough to think that Donald and Kamala were good candidates. Of course their opinion is swayed by that much propaganda.

I’m not talking about global opinion so your 2 billion ((Muslim)) figure is irrelevant. I’m talking about US voter opinion. Which is the only thing that’s relevant here because Israel only feels safe committing a genocide because it has the world’s most powerful military force protecting and funding it. This conflict has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with securing the Suez Canal and destabilizing the region so the US can keep its control over (oil) resources.

It’s clear who has the most power in this situation and it’s not the “2 billion”. It’s the “420 million” US + Israeli citizens who make up the military coalition that is currently decimating a population of . You want to talk about numbers? Let’s talk numbers. If there’s such a power imbalance why is the ratio of Gaza’s killed to Israelis 100:1 in this “war”?

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