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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#851

Post by froohmb »

Sporktacular wrote: post #399
froohmb wrote: post #375

[flagged]

Before levelling claims of bias and racism, consider that the reporting is by a Jewish run, Israeli newspaper and that the sources are IDF officers and soldiers. To jump to a claim of anti-semitism suggestions you really need to examine your own biases. Atrocities against unarmed civilians are not excused by 'but they started it', who did? The old woman, the 10 year old boy? Justifying collective punishment like this…

War crimes should be taken very seriously, not dealt with in the court of public opinion. Just look at how “ready to convict” people are in this thread, without any evidence whatsoever, just on hearsay —though yes, Haaretz is very reputable. “Blood libel” may be too strong a term, but similar idea: the jews are conspiring to do evil to non-Jews and keep it secret by control of the media or by leveraging the “zog” or maybe shapeshifting or Kabbalah or something more imaginative. It’s all just shades of antisemitism.

Even the stance that such claims must be valid because the reporters are Israeli, is itself derivative of the Jewish conspiracy trope. Is it more likely there is a large conspiracy afoot and Israeli officers are engaging in war crimes at large scale as many in this thread have concluded (even before this report), or that these are isolated and undesirable events playing out in the fog of war and representative of poor decision making in circumstances of which we have only partial knowledge?

My bias, if I have one, is to believe that the Israeli military, or really any competently run military anywhere, is interested in not committing war crimes when avoidable.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#852

Post by kylebenzle »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#853

Post by kylebenzle »

neepi wrote: post #819
quietbritishjim wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The information is unverified because Israel does not allow journalists into Gaza.

[flagged]

This is my favorite response from you guys!

"Look, children may be dying and maybe we're killing them but we need to verify and we need more time. Because first of all what were they even doing there? Oh and also this is our Land anyways and there were no deaths nobody died there aren't even any children in gaza!"

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#854

Post by neepi »

kylebenzle wrote: post #852
neepi wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

[flagged]

I suggest you re-read it a few times. I am not defending any party in this conflict. I want the truth to be established carefully for the sake of everyone. Misinformation just ends up with more bodies stacked up on both sides.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#855

Post by bglazer »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #690
n1b0m wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the start of Israel’s assault on Gaza, the vast majority of Israelis haven’t shown any concern about the suffering in Gaza. Those who campaign for an end to the war do so purely as a means to secure the release of the hostages.

That's not surprising. They remember the scenes of ecstatic celebration on the streets of Gaza and the West Bank on october 7. And the fact is that the people of Gaza could end the conflict whenever they want. All they need to do is surrender and hand over the hostages. You might think i'm oversimplifying but actually that's really it.

I keep hearing the “the killing would end if Hamas would just release the hostages”. But the Israelis keep offering ceasefire terms that include full release of hostages but no permanent cessation of hostilities, only 60 days and not even temporary full withdrawal from Gaza.

Why do you think the Israelis want to keep their tanks in Gaza even after all the hostages come back? Why won’t they offer a full and permanent ceasefire? I think this hostage justification is just Israelis buying time so they can keep on doing what they actually always wanted, full ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#856

Post by throwaway3060 »

Voultapher wrote: post #814
throwaway3060 wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This scenario already played out before in history; some people may believe those groups to have been heroes, but most can recognize that fighting in the name of independence did not make those groups any less guilty of committing atrocities against civilians. At the same time, that doesn't take away today from the people fighting for freedom legitimately. If anything, those groups hurt their cause in the long-run, a…

Just curious what does fighting for freedom legitimately look like in this context for you? > For Fanon in The Wretched of the Earth, the colonizer's presence in Algeria is based on sheer military strength. Any resistance to this strength must also be of a violent nature because it is the only "language" the colonizer speaks. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon

Continuing the WWII example, I think of partisans running sabotage operations while hiding out in the forests.

In contrast, if the actions look closer to those of literal Nazi collaborators, then there is only depravity in that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#857

Post by grugagag »

kulahan wrote: post #767
i_love_retros wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They absolutely should face something similar to the Nuremberg trials. This is planned extermination of a group of people. Unfortunately the Israeli lobby has so much money and power they would silence anyone who says that publicly by accusing them of being antisemitic.

Arguably then, shouldn’t China be ahead of them in line for Uighur camps, and the US for the Japanese camps?

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#858

Post by Hikikomori »

YZF wrote: post #706
Hikikomori wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDF HQ is next to a mall, so Israel is doing the same as Hamas?

And where is the Pentagon? Attacking the Qirya, Israel's HQ, with some sort of accuracy is a legitimate military target. It's a pretty large target. Soldiers wear uniform. There are no civilians mixed into that camp. This is very different than lobbing rockets at Beer-Sheba, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Ramat Gan. The casualties from Iran's attacks, minus one off-duty soldier, were all civilians and the targets were nowhere nea…

So you agree that your argument is nonsense.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#859

Post by snickerbockers »

birn559 wrote: post #844
snickerbockers wrote: post #832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haaretz is the last news organization I would expect to knowingly spread anti-israel disinformation. If these guys are telling you what Israel is doing is bad then it's bad.

Could you elaborate? Because it's an Israeli news organization?

Yes, and one of the more prominent ones at that. If they had a bias in this, I would expect them to be biased in favor of Israel not against it. If even they are saying Israel is committing these war crimes then I'm inclined to assume that the evidence must be very compelling.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#860

Post by amy214 »

neepi wrote: post #659
edanm wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusat…

I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the head…

[flagged]
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