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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#851
post #800

It's fascinating how over the past year we have had almost daily posts like this one, yet from the outside everything looks exactly the same, isn't that very weird? Why haven't we seen an explosion of new start-ups, products or features? Why do we still see hundreds of bug tickets on every issue tracking page? Have you noticed anything different on any changelog? I invite tptacek, or any other chatbot enthusiast arou…

Your argument relies on the idea of an "actual product", what is happening—and I’m seeing it firsthand both in my company’s codebase and in my personal projects—is that AI is contributing more and more to product development. If this trend continues, we may reach a point where 90% of a product is written by AI.

At that stage, the real value will lie in the remaining 10%—the part that requires human judgment, creativity, or architectural thinking. The rest will be seen as routine: simple instructions, redundant CRUD operations, boilerplate, and glue code.

If we focus only on the end result, human will inevitably write less code overall. And writing less code means fewer programming jobs.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#852
> You’ll spend 5-10 minutes knocking it back into your own style

You lost me here. I have often found it to be far more than a 10-minute style issue, but fundamental misunderstanding of the code purposes that I need to fix.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#853

I think this article is pretty spot on — it articulates something I’ve come to appreciate about LLM-assisted coding over the past few months. I started out very sceptical. When Claude Code landed, I got completely seduced — borderline addicted, slot machine-style — by what initially felt like a superpower. Then I actually read the code. It was shockingly bad. I swung back hard to my earlier scepticism, probably even…

One of the things I think is going on here is a sort of stone soup effect. [1] Core to Ptacek's point is that everything has changed in the last 6 months. As you and I presume he agree, the use of off-the-shelf LLMs in code was kinda garbage. And I expect the skepticism he's knocking here ("stochastic parrots") was in fact accurate then. But it did get a lot of people (and money) to rush in and start trying to make s…

Almost by definition, one should be skeptical about hype. So we’re all trying to sort out what is being sold to us.

Different people have different weird tendencies in different directions. Some people irrationally assume that things aren’t going to change much. Others see a trend and irrationally assume that it will continue on a trend line.

Synthesis is hard.

Understanding causality is even harder.

Savvy people know that we’re just operating with a bag of models and trying to choose the right combination for the right situation.

This misunderstanding is one reason why doomers, accelerations, and “normies” talk past each other or (worse) look down on each other. (I’m not trying to claim epistemic equivalence here; some perspectives are based on better information, some are better calibrated than others! I’m just not laying out my personal claims at this point. Instead, I’m focusing on how we talk to each other.)

Another big source of misunderstanding is about differing loci of control. People in positions of influence are naturally inclined to think about what they can do, who they know, and where they want to be. People farther removed feel relatively powerless and tend to hold onto their notions of stability, such as the status quo or their deepest values.

Historically, programmers have been quite willing to learn new technologies, but now we’re seeing widespread examples where people’s plasticity has limits. Many developers cannot (or are unwilling to) wrap their minds around the changing world. So instead of confronting the reality they find ways to deny it, consciously or subconsciously. Our perception itself is shaped by our beliefs, and some people won’t even perceive the threat because it is too strange or disconcerting. Such is human nature: we all do it. Sometimes we’re lucky enough to admit it.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#854

I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the l…

AI tools are enabling the developer to a higher level of abstraction to engineering manager or product manager. Those roles do not need to be familiar with code in that detail.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#857
My AI enamored friends are all nuts.

I get it. You're being so productive. (Or so you claim. I don't believe you.)

But if I don't affirm your work choices, or embrace them myself, you lose your mind like a little caffeinated squirrel.

> If you can’t metabolize the boring, repetitive code an LLM generates: skills issue!

Case in point. Touch grass.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#858

My AI enamored friends are all nuts. I get it. You're being so productive. (Or so you claim. I don't believe you.) But if I don't affirm your work choices, or embrace them myself, you lose your mind like a little caffeinated squirrel. > If you can’t metabolize the boring, repetitive code an LLM generates: skills issue! Case in point. Touch grass.

Slop adding implicit arbitrary higher order tensors to linear problems.

Sounds cool, but not useful... lol

Reminds one of a classic fictional conversation... =3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#859

I think this article is pretty spot on — it articulates something I’ve come to appreciate about LLM-assisted coding over the past few months. I started out very sceptical. When Claude Code landed, I got completely seduced — borderline addicted, slot machine-style — by what initially felt like a superpower. Then I actually read the code. It was shockingly bad. I swung back hard to my earlier scepticism, probably even…

For what it's worth: I'm not dismissive of the idea that these things could be ruinous for the interests of the profession. I don't automatically assume that making applications drastically easier to produce is just going to make way for more opportunities. I just don't think the interest of the profession control. The travel agents had interests too!

For a long time there has been back chatter on how to turn programming into a more professional field, more like actual engineering where when something goes wrong actual people and companies start to take security seriously, and get held accountable for their mistakes, and start to actually earn their high salaries.

Getting AI to hallucinate its way into secure and better quality code seems like the antithesis of this. Why don't we have AI and robots working for humanity with the boring menial tasks - mowing laws, filing taxes, washing dishes, driving cars - instead of attempting to take on our more critical and creative outputs - image generation, movie generation, book writing and even website building.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#860

I think this article is pretty spot on — it articulates something I’ve come to appreciate about LLM-assisted coding over the past few months. I started out very sceptical. When Claude Code landed, I got completely seduced — borderline addicted, slot machine-style — by what initially felt like a superpower. Then I actually read the code. It was shockingly bad. I swung back hard to my earlier scepticism, probably even…

The irony of the ChatGPT em dashes ;3
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