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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

bbc.com

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Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#851

Post by remarkEon »

jmward01 wrote: post #506

US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation yo…

We need to level-set the reality here.

The lines on the map in the Ukraine war do not change in Ukraine's favor unless one or both of the following happen: 1) The United States gets directly involved, and/or 2) strategic weapons are used. The Europeans are not going to be willing to sacrifice their vast social programs for a massive defense build up. I think everyone realizes this, and I think the recent election results in multiple countries there make this point.

You are complaining, I think, about the style here. An argument in the Oval Office. Well, the United States is the main reason that Russia, after its disastrous and frankly juvenile attempt at an invasion, hasn't been able to gain additional territory after the war went into the defensive. Let me repeat that: The United States is the reason this war is still on-going. And as a result of this fact, The United States is the one that gets to dictate terms.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#852

Post by rhubarbtree »

nrawe wrote: post #297

So, watching the video as a brit with a number if Ukrainian friends and colleagues, my first reaction is that this is the Trump Whitehouse looking for a cheap win. However, I think their calculation here speaks to the difficulty of the current situation. Putting aside the morality, sovereign integrity, and such: the situation appears to be entering/in a stalemate. The Ukrainian forces have done well to proactively ta…

There is precisely one solution, which is western troops on the ground in Ukraine.

Yes that’s terrifying, no it won’t lead to world war three.

Any other solution leads to widespread war across the globe.

As I’m fairly confident the west won’t put troops on the ground to fight russia, you can test my hypothesis by watching china start making moves on Taiwan in the short term, and then further wars breaking out over the next few years. I’ll go with several African countries, the Middle East (Jordan, Iran, Syria, Iraq), turkey, and once the Ukraine situation has settled multiple Eastern European countries. Worst case you’ll see the baltics invaded by Russia, I think there’s a good chance of that. Finland an outside bet.

I may be wrong, but I did anticipate the coup in turkey, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the election of trump.

Enjoy your life whilst you can. Conscription is coming. There will be a lot of western troop deployments. These are the good old days.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#853

Post by CraftingLinks »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #127

I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private. Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand

Trump called Zelensky a dictator in public, did he not? Zelensky, democratically elected, president of a democratic country, invaded by a tyran, a non-democratic and extreme anti-western attitude, was called a dictator. That is hard to understand, until you realise Trump tries to man-handle an extortion deal out of Ukrain...and now because the man doesn't bend over backwards he's disrespectful? That man showed a lot of courage in my book.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#854

Post by [deleted] »

StarterPro wrote: post #846

They're both clearly bought. Why else would you have the cameras in there for that long, and act that way in front of said cameras. I'd hate to be Rubio or anyone else trying to actually do their job. It stopped being a Red/Blue issue after the polls closed, this is a issue for the country as a whole.

[deleted]

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#855

Post by gitaarik »

jmward01 wrote: post #506

US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation yo…

[flagged]

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#856

Post by 99_00 »

basisword wrote: post #389

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…

The leaders of Germany and France don’t see Ukraine as part of their destiny. And that’s their right.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#857

Post by whizzter »

basisword wrote: post #389

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…

We just had the leader of a Swedish party saying that non-US nuclear armament plans are needed, this is very significant since it's been basically unthinkable to say as far back as the 1960s or so when our own nuclear program was dismantled (The program was discontinued partly due to internal pressures but also rumored longstanding US guarantees for being under a nuclear shield).

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#858

Post by ZeroGravitas »

basisword wrote: post #389

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of J…

They weren't bending the knee. They were treating Trump like a toddler because that's the best strategy to get concessions from him.

Look at the theatre of the UK giving him the "unprecedented" letter from the King.

Talk of "bending knees" just makes macho idiots think they're winning. It's more like distracting your really drunk friend with something shiny to stop him starting a bar fight or walking into traffic while hoping when he sobers up he'll change for the better, not continue his slide into becoming an permanent asshole.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#859

Post by BLKNSLVR »

StarterPro wrote: post #846

They're both clearly bought. Why else would you have the cameras in there for that long, and act that way in front of said cameras. I'd hate to be Rubio or anyone else trying to actually do their job. It stopped being a Red/Blue issue after the polls closed, this is a issue for the country as a whole.

Rubio has since done at least one interview regurgitating Trump's and Vance's positions, so he's sold the entirety of his soul.

He doesn't appear to deserve any sympathy.

Re: Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting

#860

Post by czhu12 »

A couple other ripple effects that could shape the next decade with Americas new position

1. The nuclear deterrence of mutually assured destruction that’s been in place for half a century is no longer “assured” if the U.S. isn’t seen to be reliable. I have to imagine the second priority after upholding Ukraine is a European arms race, so that at least the sum of European warheads and delivery capabilities matches Russian ones.

2. There’s a fringe pro unification group in Taiwan that advocates for reunification with China on friendly rather than hostile terms. It will be seen if that group raises in prominence after these spectacles.

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