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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#851

Post by emsign »

bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

500 billion for a few US companies yet the Chinese will probably still be better for way less money. This might turn out to be a historical mistake of the new administration.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#852

Post by caseyy »

Seeing as OpenAI is on the back foot, I hope nationalistic politicians don’t use this opportunity to strengthen patent laws.

If one could effectively patent software inventions, this would kill many industries, from video games (that all have mechanics of other games in them) to computing in general (fast algorithms, etc). Let’s hope no one gets ideas like that…

Granted, it would be ineffective in competing against China’s tech industry. But less effective laws have been lobbied through in the past.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#853

Post by kelseydh »

mkoubaa wrote: post #670

OpenAI made a lot of contributions to LLMs obviously but the amount of fraud, deception, and dark patterns coming out of that organization make me root against it.

The name itself, as for-profit closed source software, is grating.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#854

Post by maeil »

runako wrote: post #499
bangaladore wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So they'll go for getting DeepSeek banned like TikTok was now that a precedent has been set ? Can't really ban what can be downloaded for free and hosted by anyone. There are many providers hosting the ~700B parameter version that aren't CCP aligned.

I'm old enough to remember when the US government did something very similar. For years (decades?), we banned any implementation of public-key cryptography under the guise of the technology being akin to munitions. People made shirts with printouts of the code to RSA under the heading "this shirt is a munition." Apparently such shirts are still for sale, even though they are not classified as munitions anymore. [1] -…

Were these implementations already easily open source accessible at the time, with tens of thousands of people already actively using them on their computers? No, right? Doesn't seem feasible this time around.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#855

Post by LeafItAlone »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #841
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

> It just needs to be plausible enough that OpenAI can make a reasonable case for continuing investment at the levels it's historically attained > there's now doubt that a DeepSeek-level model could be trained without making use of OpenAI's substantial levels of investment. But, this still seems to be a problem for OpenAI. Who wants to invest "substantially" in a company whose output can be used by competitors to bui…

>There's a scenario where this development is catastrophic for OpenAI's business model.

Is there a scenario where it isn’t?

Either (1) a competitor is able to do it better without their work or (2) a competitor is able to use their output and develop a better product.

Either way, given the costs, how do you justify investing in OpenAI if the competitor is going to eat their lunch and you’ll never get a return on your investment?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#856

Post by crote »

sangnoir wrote: post #606
worik wrote: post #431

[flagged]

> Banned in the USA. Only. The US government has the wherewithal to drag Europe along with it, like they did with Huawei's 5G equipment.

Perhaps a few years ago, yes. But considering that the US president is now threatening to invade and annex part of a European country, I don't think past results can be extrapolated to the present.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#857

Post by cscurmudgeon »

bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

The US doesn't need to ban DeepSeek from US

The US should only ban DeepSeek (and other Chinese companies) from accessing US frontier models.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#858

Post by hatmanstack »

SecretDreams wrote: post #845
wzdd wrote: post #799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff about copyright seems irrelevant. OpenAI's future investments -- billions -- were just threatened to be undercut by several orders of magnitude by a competitor. It's in their best interests to cast doubt on that competitor's achievements. If they can do so by implying that OpenAI are in fact the source of most of the DeepSeek's performance then all the better. It doesn't matter whether there's a compelling…

OpenAI is going out of their way to demonstrate that they will willingly spend the money of their investors to the tune of 100s of billions of dollars, only to then enable 100s of derivative competitors that can be launched at a fraction of the cost. Basically, in a round about way, OpenAi is going back to their roots and more - they're something between a charity and Robin Hood, stealing the money of rich investors…

Homogeneous systems kill innovation, with that in mind, I guess it’s a good thing DeepSeek disregards licenses? Seems like sledding down an icy slope, slippery. and they suck.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#860

Post by nightpool »

alecco wrote: post #493
blast wrote: post #374

Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.

Even if all that about training is true, the bigger cost is inference and Deepseek is 100x cheaper. That destroys OpenAI/Anthropic's value proposition of having a unique secret sauce so users are quickly fleeing to cheaper alternatives. Google Deepmind's recent Gemini 2.0 Flash Thinking is also priced at the new Deepseek level. It's pretty good (unlike previous Gemini models). [0] https://x.com/deedydas/status/188335…

I mean, Deepseek is currently charging 100x less. That doesn't tell us much about how cheaper it is to run inference on.
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