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10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

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Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#851

Post by dangus »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #772
mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

I used to have more sympathy for this position, and my political biases are strongly left wing, but having spent time in Cuba on and off for the last 20 years... time has shown just how incompetent and malevolent the Cuban regime is. It would suck badly there without the sanctions, too. Though I think the sanctions give the regime an excuse. Obama was right to start to lift restrictions... a decade of continued stagn…

If we assume that sanctions are the major barrier to Cuba's prosperity, a competent government that governed with the best interest of its people in mind would have been working for the past half century to try and convince the United States to lift those sanctions.

You would think that being less than 500 miles off the coast of Florida that Cuba would want to have strong relations with the USA rather than Russia over 6,000 miles away.

The Soviet Union fell in 1991. It should have been clear since then which horse Cuba should be betting on. Cuba has had 33 years to figure out that their revolution was dead. Their lack of success warming up relations with the USA and their failure to do so is on them.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#852

Post by pembrook »

seydor wrote: post #729

In southern europe we call this "Brain drain". It's a global phenomenon it seems, freedom of movement leads to contentration of productive forces to a few global cities, while the rest of the planet is increasingly deserted

What's happening in Cuba has no resemblance to what happens in Southern Europe.

In Southern Europe, talent leaves for better job opportunities and higher salary. In Cuba, people are literally fleeing to achieve basic human rights and 21st century quality of life.

I'm not sure if you've been to Cuba before, but having visited in the late 2010s, it's a caricature of life in a communist dictatorship.

Internet wasn't allowed, except for in certain public parks at certain times of the day, only on phones with certain websites, and with dial-up speeds.

The sum total of fresh food in grocery stores was 1 type of government ham, 1 type of government cheese, eggs, a few fruits, and that was basically it.

I could go on. It's a beautiful island country, but please don't fall for the silly idea that US sanctions or european-style "brain drain" have anything to do with the reason Cubans are leaving.

Authoritarian communist dictatorships are no joke.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#853

Post by mandelbrotwurst »

vimbtw wrote: post #849
seydor wrote: post #729

In southern europe we call this "Brain drain". It's a global phenomenon it seems, freedom of movement leads to contentration of productive forces to a few global cities, while the rest of the planet is increasingly deserted

The more important thing would seem to be what actually led to the immigration in the first place. In Cuba’s case it seems like widespread corruption and wholesale mismanagement by the government. This particular case doesn’t seem like an inevitable result of globalization but the natural reaction to a terrible government.

> what actually led to the immigration

Great point, and just FYI: "emigration" here.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#854

Post by dangus »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #214
labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

Republicans are strongly anti-illegal immigration, and that appears anti-immigration to some.

It's a mistake to make the good-faith assumption that Republicans have logically consistent views.

To Republicans, Cubans don't count as illegal immigrants because they're escaping "communism," and their immigrants consistently vote red. Plus, the majority of Cubans are white and Christian, unlike the brown immigrants that Republicans don't want in the country.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#855

Post by alephnerd »

dazc wrote: post #794
alephnerd wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pakistani (most Pahari/Mirpuri) community was segregated in de facto ghettos and were brought to work unskilled manual labor jobs in a couple industrial estates in the 50s-70s. When the UK began deindustrializing, they were extremely hard hit because the factories shut down. Poverty and Northern England racism (BNP was normalized and doing hate crimes well into the early 2000s, schools were shite with grammar sch…

None of the doors I was able to open here in the US would have been opened if I were in the UK or Germany... The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent, that he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling of racism is quite remarkable given he subsequently was unable to demonstrate a talent for anything.

> The UK recently had a Prime Minister of Indian descent

And the US had an African American President yet police brutality incidents still occur.

And that Prime Minister has anyhow left the UK and returned to California (a couple blocks from the Santa Monica Pier). Some GSB alums are setting up a VC Fund for that PM post-Downing Street as we speak.

Hell, his business career only started AFTER he immigrated to the US and then returned to the UK to work at TCM.

> he was able to breakthrough the glass ceiling P Money is the ultimate equalizer in a country as status obsessed as the UK.

Sunak attended an independent school which his parents were able to afford being specialists.

Grammar Schools were shut down in the 80s-90s and comprehensives continue to underperform independent schools in placing students in Russell Group programs.

If you're parents were working class, you statistically will remain working class.

Intergenerational Social Mobility remains lows in the UK [0][1][2][3], and add to that economic depression in the North+Midlands and the very real othering that happens in the UK and that has caused the Mirpuri community to remain economically deprived.

--------

In the US I never get asked where I'm from, or told that "my English is excellent", or after a couple pints with coworkers get told "you're one of the good ones". Yet I've faced this kinda BS ALL THE TIME whenever I'm in the UK for work. It's worse on the mainland.

Fundamentally, in the US I am not treated as a token nor do I face microagressions. In the UK or Mainland Europe I have to deal with both.

[0] - https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/from-briefin...

[1] - https://ifs.org.uk/news/social-mobility-continues-fall-and-m...

[2] - https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-sector/our-insigh...

[3] - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-4446.1...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#856

Post by thiagoharry »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #427
toast0 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cuba would be a great travel destination. It's been a while since I visited places outside the US, but one of the shocking things was travel ads for Cuba everywhere. From what I can tell, US-Cuban relations seem to be at the whim of the US President. Most of the US population doesn't care; most of the rest of the world has fine relations with Cuba, but isn't going to pressure the US. Nobody is sending missiles to C…

> most of the rest of the world has fine relations with Cuba Most of the rest of the world didn't get Soviet nuclear missiles pointed at them by Cuba.

You know that this was a response for american missiles being placed on Turkey, right? By your comment, I assume that you also agree with Russia, when they criticize NATO expansion around their borders, right?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#857

Post by NalNezumi »

weweweoo wrote: post #670
Ma8ee wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swede, we have always been very bad letting foreigners in. Most, even otherwise liberal and well educated, have been low key racist. One part has been that anyone not speaking perfect Swedish has been seen as bit stupid. Having a foreign sounding name has made it much harder to get to an interview. Imagine growing up with hard working parents with engineering or medical degrees working as cleaners because no one…

To be honest, it's also the quality of migrants that Sweden receives. The migrants joining gangs or getting radicalized in Sweden are primarily ones who arrived as asylum seekers, usually without much language and marketable job market skills, and with conservative cultural background that can be a burden. This is a big contract to the United States, which doesn't receive anywhere near as many refugees (adjusted to i…

>I think Sweden does a decent job integrating those migrants who arrive with sufficient skills for the job market. It's the rest that are problematic, and they would probably do better in the US with its lack of welfare state.

As a (technically) second generation migrant born and raised I doubt this. This is a sentiment mostly only shared by isolated liberal wing of the society, who probably don't really mingle with expat population beyond surface chatter.

And it's not just some racism sentiment but as the post you replied to insinuate, general xenophobic / supremacist sentiments. I even know other (white) Europeans with great education and jobs getting sick of this place because just how condescending and unfriendly people in general are, for petty things such as unperfect Swedish. (Native English speaking migrant being the only exception)

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#858

Post by silverquiet »

refurb wrote: post #557
apsec112 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump supported a plan to reduce legal immigration by half: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/us/politics/trump-immigra...

That's an article from 7 years ago? Don't you think it makes more sense to look at Trump's 2024 platform? https://rncplatform.donaldjtrump.com/ The only statement on legal immigration: "Republicans will prioritize Merit-based immigration, ensuring those admitted to our Country contribute positively to our Society and Economy, and never become a drain on Public Resources."

In the last ten years or so, I came to understand the parable of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” in a visceral way. We can all see the viciousness and cruelty to scapegoats is Trump and the conservatives binding principal, and that they’ve settled in immigrants as that scapegoat without much regard to legal status. You can tell me all you want that the evidence of my eyes and ears is false, but I am not able to turn them off.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#859

Post by apwell23 »

mfru wrote: post #760
mattmaroon wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t brain drain imply the smarter people are moving? I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here. I think it’s anyone who can get out. When I was in Havana our AirBnB was next to the Spanish embassy. There was a long line every morning of potential emigres waiting for their turn. (I have no idea how the process works when they get to the front of the line, I just was told they were trying to get out of the country…

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

they should try to become USAs bitch then. Leaders there would rather starve their population than give up their power.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#860

Post by aniviacat »

gosub100 wrote: post #803
mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

we criticize ourselves for sanctioning communist countries, but don't they necessarily have to be hostile to capitalist nations? I mean, assume their communism is working properly and "everyone gets the same" for all resources. Its pretty much a given that that level of resources will be less than a capitalist nation. If we accept the axiom that each person wants to maximize their resources, then we should expect a n…

> Its pretty much a given that that level of resources will be less than a capitalist nation.

Why?

> If we accept the axiom that each person wants to maximize their resources, then we should expect a natural outflow from the [poorer] nation to the [richer] one. In order to limit that, any ruler would be incentivized to pain the [rich] world as the enemy or make it a crime to affiliate/sympathize with them. this naturally leads to conflict between nations.

(I replaced communist/capitalist with poor/rich since that's what your point is actually about.)

Are you saying that the poor world is naturally the enemy of the rich world? That the rich world should utilize its power (e.g. using sanctions) to keep the poor world (which in your view is the enemy) weak?

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