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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#851

Post by koonsolo »

ModernMech wrote: post #816
koonsolo wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The promise of a colorblind world was naive, and it won’t work. I'm all for equality and anti-racisms. But if you say "game is on between the races", well then let's go and see who wins. Edit: Maybe I wasn't clear, but if you are going to discriminate me for whatever skin color I have, I'm not going to roll over and cry. I'm going to fight you. Fair and simple.

That’s not what I am saying and it’s sad to me that you interpret my words to mean I intend to discriminate against you based on your race. Im not advocating any competition between races. The point is that creating a “colorblind” world, without correcting the other indicators which strongly correlate with race, doesn’t lead to a a diverse outcome. For instance, let’s say we institute a policy that to eliminate hirin…

Yes, it definitely puts it in a better perspective. Because your policy doesn't mention race at all. It bases itself on social settings, which is fine by me.

My apologies for misinterpreting you.

As a European, I think the biggest problem in US (not an expert so I might be wrong) is that your neighborhood taxes pay for the local school. That means that when you can afford to live in a good neighborhood, your kids can go to a good school. Unfortunately the other side is also true. When you live in a bad neighborhood, your kids go to a bad school.

That is a huge difference with European countries where schools are funded with national taxes. The difference in school quality is close to each other, and every kid gets to go to a proper school.

I think it would solve some of the problems if US would adopt this system.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#852

Post by dbrueck »

zamalek wrote: post #846
zamalek wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have I been told to leave somewhere [...] Why do some black people hate white people? Because their great grandparent perished on a cotton plantation, because their friend was hunted by some white folks in a truck, because their friend was choked to death by a white policeman, because your race is targeted by disenfranchisement. Why do some white people hate black people? Because they hate black people. There is a…

I won't be paying any more attention to this thread. I have evidently engaged in a fool's errand. If you continue to disagree with me and my learned viewpoint (I once believed that my police brutality experience was racism) then it is likely my fault for not being able to adequately convey this viewpoint. I can't see a way for me to express it any other way, so this discussion is pointless. I have gone from your curr…

Best of luck! If you do care to revisit the topic, I urge you to start with focusing on what racism actually is and isn't. Specifically, a racist act or thought isn't non-racist just because there is a "good" argument for it.

If you can get past that idea, then a lot of how we can fight racism follows pretty naturally (and, by extension, it becomes more clear that at least some of what is happening today in the name of fighting racism actually engenders it).

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#853

Post by MockObject »

tptacek wrote: post #747
rayiner wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marxism is distinguished as an ideology by totalizing class consciousness. That's the opposite of wokeness, which ratifies identity politics. It's an ideology that replaces Marxism's "totalizing class consciousness" with a "totalizing race consciousness." > Just how much work is the word "neo" doing in that name? A lot, and the "Marxism" is doing very little. It's a clumsy construction. But the meaning is clear in…

So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race". Who owns the means of production? Or is it the means of something else now? It's like calling capitalism "neo-fascism", or, for that matter, taking any ${BADTHING} and attaching neo- to it to craft a slur. The meaning is clear in context because you know who he's talking about. But you just called this "the best de…

> So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race".

Correct, and in fact, many Marxists are virulently against CRT/wokeness, because it distracts from class as the central conflict in society.

Critics crudely call CRT/wokeness "Marxist" because it's a conflict perspective.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#854

Post by MockObject »

John23832 wrote: post #760
_gql5 wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To the contrary, "representation" is used by white people to obtain the support of minority groups without giving them anything. I see white people pressuring my daughter to look up to Kamala Harris (because Harris "looks like her"). This is just manipulation. Harris will not meaningfully advance the distinct interests of south asian people, nor is she a good model of south asian culture or values. It's also not ha…

> It's also not hard to receive this behavior as completely fucking racist. Do whites presuppose that just because we have the same skin color, ethnic background, or similar physical features, that we will be aligned on political or philosophical points? Yes. There are many white people who align on skin color. That's how the US Antebellum South, SA Apartheid and WW2 persecution of Jews worked.

Look how far afield those examples had to be drawn from!

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#856

Post by tptacek »

MockObject wrote: post #853
tptacek wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race". Who owns the means of production? Or is it the means of something else now? It's like calling capitalism "neo-fascism", or, for that matter, taking any ${BADTHING} and attaching neo- to it to craft a slur. The meaning is clear in context because you know who he's talking about. But you just called this "the best de…

> So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race". Correct, and in fact, many Marxists are virulently against CRT/wokeness, because it distracts from class as the central conflict in society. Critics crudely call CRT/wokeness "Marxist" because it's a conflict perspective.

Right, but the world is full of conflict perspectives, not least among right-wingers. They can't all be Marxists, just because Gramsci came up with an ultra-generalizable concept.

(I think we agree, just writing it down to clarify my thoughts).

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#857

Post by MockObject »

tptacek wrote: post #856
MockObject wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race". Correct, and in fact, many Marxists are virulently against CRT/wokeness, because it distracts from class as the central conflict in society. Critics crudely call CRT/wokeness "Marxist" because it's a conflict perspective.

Right, but the world is full of conflict perspectives, not least among right-wingers. They can't all be Marxists, just because Gramsci came up with an ultra-generalizable concept. (I think we agree, just writing it down to clarify my thoughts).

We do agree here.

It's interesting that calling CRT "Marxist" gives the Fox News watchers a familiar enemy to fulminate against, and it gives the CRT peddlers themselves unearned credibility as dangerous dissidents, so it's a misidentification that serves everyone but the dwindling number of actual Marxists, and pedants bent on accuracy.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#858

Post by LordDragonfang »

mikrotikker wrote: post #814
supercheetah wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description of intersectionality is the exact opposite of what it is. It's entire purpose is to show everyone that playing the operation Olympics is a pointless game that no one wins. It's too show that everyone's struggles don't fit into neat little boxes that define them, and show that social problems are multidimensional that don't have simple solutions, and shows that a lot of DEI initiatives are superficial…

Intersectionality? The ideology famous for having a victim heirarchy so you have an ideological rating of how much of a victim someone is?

Could you link me to the source that describes intersectionality in a way even remotely approximating that? Or where this "victim hierarchy" is detailed? I'd love to calculate my victim score™.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#859

Post by Firmwarrior »

DrThunder wrote: post #797
Firmwarrior wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about how we're on a slippery slope to creating "the superior class" and then try to claim that I'm being combative? Comeon man. To attempt to salvage this subthread: What I'm personally doing is exactly what DEI is for the most part. BigCo gives you a yearly training that says "Make sure you give someone a fair shot even if they don't wow you with their resume". BigCo sends out a slideshow with some e…

"What I'm personally doing is exactly what DEI is for the most part." No, it's not and if you think this is true you've been burying your head in the sand for the last 5 years. Companies don't create specific Diversity/Equity coordinators and entire DEI departments just to tell you to occasionally look closer at some people you think aren't getting a fair shot. You're just gaslighting now or blissfully ignorant of th…

Yeah, fair enough, I'll keep my eyes peeled

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#860

Post by throwaway894345 »

abbiebe89 wrote: post #844
throwaway894345 wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criticizing DEI programs (as the parent was clearly doing) isn't "spouting bigotry". You can certainly challenge bigotry on this site without violating the site guidelines (and "challenging bigotry" is hardly unpopular here).

[dead]

> Criticizing the concept of DEI is spouting bigotry, and it's anti-fact.

Not at all. For example, I believe that selecting for viewpoint diversity directly is a better way to achieve viewpoint diversity than via DEI. Moreover, I firmly reject that race or gender confer any special abilities (and frankly this gets me into more hot water with DEI advocates than anyone else). These two positions aren't in conflict in any way. This example constitutes incontrovertible proof that "criticizing the concept of DEI is spouting bigotry" is incorrect.

> And no, you cannot support the concept of DEI and remain on this site without resorting to the tricks I've had to.

This is factually incorrect as well. I debate with lots of people who argue vocally for DEI (even strongly implying personal attacks) who have been on this site for a long time (and have lots of karma!). They just stay within the guidelines or at least they don't flout them as egregiously as you seem to be doing.

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