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Dear Chess World

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Re: Dear Chess World

#851

Post by threatofrain »

maegul wrote: post #659
noncoml wrote: post #524

Here is a crazy idea. If you get caught cheating, even once, you should be banned for life. Otherwise we end up in a lose-lose situation. It’s almost impossible for Magnus to prove Niemann cheated on that game. It’s impossible for Niemann to prove he didn’t cheat. But shouldn’t matter. He was caught cheating before, he shouldn’t have been allowed to compete again. I don’t remember Ben Johnson or Lance Armstrong getti…

Fair. However Hans's defence was that 1) he'd never cheated in professional contexts and 2) he was young and stupid. These seem like fair qualifications to your proposition.

Hans has admitted to cheating in tournaments for money. Money is surely the line between professional and amateur. As for forgiving young people, we should codify that if we are serious about that. For example, we might have a 3-strikes rule that allows all young people to cheat at least 3 times before they are given an adult punishment, and we might also desire the ability to seal prior history.

Re: Dear Chess World

#852

Post by eimrine »

I'm not very interested in chess, but I think I came up with the perfect option for cheating. You swallow a tablet with a radio receiver and a vibration motor, having studied the Morse code before this. You can even play naked, as Hans suggested. Happy discovery.

Re: Dear Chess World

#853

Post by victor9000 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #494

I have no opinions on the actual event given I have no clue what the details are. But accusing someone of cheating without any concrete evidence doesn’t sit well with me. It creates a situation where it declares all exceptional cases impossible. It’s impossible for growth. It’s impossible that someone could lose to a weaker player. I suspect that people are able to say “even without concrete evidence, this is astrono…

There's no smoking gun, but it's so blatantly obvious. Hans has floundered incredibly in postgame analysis after some of his recent wins, saying things like "I don't need to show variations" and "chess speaks for itself". For those who are not familiar, postgame analysis is where a player sits down with a commentator (often a retired GM) and discusses the key positions in the game. This universally involves describing the variations for a potential move, and explaining the logic for choosing a particular line. So his inability to speak coherently about a position where he won the match is perhaps the most glaring clue that his recent wins have not been earned.

Re: Dear Chess World

#854

Post by danieljacksonno »

kjerkegor wrote: post #137
shawabawa3 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's admitted to cheating at 12 years old and at 16 years old (just 3 years ago)

Just 3 years ago in that age is a lot. Also he said that he didn't cheat in prize money tournaments or tournaments at all at 16, he cheated because he wanted to boost his rating and play better players, not saying that is okay. I don't know if he cheated against Magnus or not, but to say that he cheated because something he did at twelve is stupid. Magnus saying that Hans wasn't tense and concentrated is far more imp…

He only (recently) admitted to those two cases because he was publicly outed. It seems extremely unlikely that the only two times he was caught was also the only two times he cheated. I think it's very probable he has cheated dozens or hundreds of times and not been caught or not been publicly outed for it.

Re: Dear Chess World

#855

Post by xnorswap »

Semaphor wrote: post #736
jbaber wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Permanent ban is standard punishment for cheating in lots of things in life. It's bizarre to me that it's not so in chess. Was he only caught while under 18. I can understand giving a second chance to children.

The last time he admitted to cheating was when he was 16

And in a non-FIDE (online) event.

If he was caught in a FIDE event then of course a ban should be permanent, much like athletics.

Re: Dear Chess World

#856

Post by fastball »

erfgh wrote: post #846

This is a farce. All credibility has been lost when you have to scan players like you scan people when entering a plane. Chess is touted as an ingenious game when it is little more than a brute-force search with simple prune and huge amounts of memorization. I would argue that most GMs would easily play up to 200-300 elo points below their current level with little to no practice. But they spend decades of their live…

> It is telling that nobody is pushing for chess960

I mean chess960 seems to be on the up, no? FIDE had their first ever world champs only three years ago (where notably Carlsen still made it to the final, though did end up losing to Wesley So)

Re: Dear Chess World

#857

Post by maegul »

threatofrain wrote: post #851
maegul wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. However Hans's defence was that 1) he'd never cheated in professional contexts and 2) he was young and stupid. These seem like fair qualifications to your proposition.

Hans has admitted to cheating in tournaments for money. Money is surely the line between professional and amateur. As for forgiving young people, we should codify that if we are serious about that. For example, we might have a 3-strikes rule that allows all young people to cheat at least 3 times before they are given an adult punishment, and we might also desire the ability to seal prior history.

I wasn’t aware of the cheating for money. Do have a source?

As for codification, criminal leniency for juveniles, which is widespread, gets you pretty close.

For chess to have its own codifications, I think, as Magnus clearly does too, that they need to generally up their game across the board. All the way from detection, investigation, protocols/procedures around suspicions, accusations and hearings/tribunals … and then the penalties can be codified.

I don’t know what’s in place now and what its history is, but Magnus is either chucking a massive rage-quit for losing or telling the chess world they need to get serious and catch up quick vc (or why not both I suppose).

Re: Dear Chess World

#858

Post by erfgh »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #156
gizmo wrote: post #46

Why are known cheaters even allowed to participate in top level tournaments? It’s insulting to all the other chess players. Magnus is setting the right example by refusing to play Niemann

Zero tolerance blacklisting of cheaters is probably the best way forward. If neither Niemann nor Carlsen recant, then I predict chess will fall into general disrepute like baseball or billiards. The way for the professional chess community to salvage this situation is with zero tolerance blacklisting of anybody caught cheating, even as a teenager.

What is wrong with billiards? It's pretty hard to cheat and not get caught there, although it happens every once in a while.

Re: Dear Chess World

#859

Post by fbnlsr »

not_kurt_godel wrote: post #375
erdevs wrote: post #97

A key fact to understand in thinking about cheating in over the board chess: a strong player can defeat a much stronger opponent with just 1-3 hints per game indicating the strongest move. For example, most chess experts agree that a ~2600 rated player with 2-3 hints at key moments per game would be expected to beat a ~2800 rated player. Many people might assume that a cheater needs guidance every move, thereby requi…

> Also, clever cheating devices have been found in over the board chess competitions The most convincing candidate for such a device I've seen is an Illuminati Thumper Pro hidden in Hans's shoe: https://illuminati-magic.com/products/thumper . If you watch the footage of him getting scanned before his match with Alireza (and, crucially, before Magnus announced he was dropping), there are a couple of subtle things that…

If chess TO are that scared of cheaters, they should just take each player measurements and provide them with their own clothing/accessories.

Re: Dear Chess World

#860

Post by rurban »

derac wrote: post #467
markwkw wrote: post #445

Chess is, in a way, doomed. At this point cheating by a smart perpetrator is nearly impossible to detect. - Miniature devices can even be implanted. You can probably already have a chess engine onboard your body. - Accomplices of a cheater only need to transmit a few bits of information to be useful - making cheating cheap when audience is allowed. - Statistical methods will not be able to detect a player increasing…

You could play in a Faraday cage, use an SDR and check for weird radio signals, and other steps. Some of this would only really be feasible at the highest levels, but that's where going to those lengths is needed.

We just had a project on HN with the stockfish engine and sensors both in the shoe. No radio signals whatsoever needed.
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