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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#851

Post by phatfish »

cowtools wrote: post #806
elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

> So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship.

The "free speech" angle is an obvious smoke screen for bullying. Their "doxing" is in typical bully style, a whole forum against one person they take a dislike to.

Most normal people don't want to play that game, or even have the resources to do it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#852

Post by tsol »

BonoboIO wrote: post #436

Deep down in our heart we all know that kiwifarms is a forum made for hate and cloudflare has no responsibility to host them. Yeah, sometimes the Twitter mob comes and cancels someone for no real reason, but this is not the case here.

I think the fear people have is that; if you can be canceled for a reason AND the reasons people are seen as wrong often change THEN there's a worry that next time it could be us. After all, there was a time when being black or gay could get you canceled and presumably that can come back. The reigning ideology switches every 4-8 years, it's a possibility no matter what side you take

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#853

Post by irthomasthomas »

nootropicat wrote: post #682
irthomasthomas wrote: post #273

I didn't know about this site until yesterday. After reading the thread that got them took down, I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord. I mean, if this is how people act in public[0], I hate to imagine what kind of stuff they are doing in a private discord, away from parents prying eyes. There's no heroes in this story. [0] Bathtub hormones being sold to minors in bright packaging featuring…

>I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord Ten years later: why is my kid such a loner? Discord is the main persistent group chat service in the west (telegram seems popular in the third world except for China). It's used for virtually everything. Socially it's almost equivalent to cutting your kids from any online chat. Honestly, I would consider a total ban a mild form of child abuse.

Did you skip over my justification? That people are using discord to talk to kids about sex and DIY hormone therapy, and selling BATHTUB hormones to kids without their parents knowing?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#854

Post by mikl »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #677
mikl wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one’s saying they are. But Cloudflare enjoys a virtual monopoly on affordable and reliable DDoS protection, and that is a very unhealthy thing for the open Internet. If you operate an online business and your comptetitors can somehow convince Cloudflare to drop you, they can have you taken offline, permanently, by paying a pittance to have you DDoS'ed.

I don’t think you can fairly call them a monopoly. It took me like three minutes to come up with seven different competitors offering DDoS protection. And that’s just top-of-mind companies, without even doing research into anyone I might not know offhand. - https://www.fastly.com/products/ddos-mitigation - https://aws.amazon.com/shield/ - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/ddos-protection/ddos-... - https://www.a…

But how many of these will actually fend of a full-scale DDoS attack on your behalf without sending you a five- or six-digit bill for the trouble afterwards?

Haven’t researched all the options, but there must be some reason that DDoS targets all tend to use Cloudflare.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#855

Post by tsol »

danShumway wrote: post #746
richbell wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve read some hilariously out-of-touch comments on this site, but this might take the cake. You know what else happens on a monthly basis? Normal paychecks. IIRC the context of that quote was that Kiwi Farms has/had several people constantly filing frivolous lawsuits against it who were literally on welfare/government support.

I thought the GP comment was wild, but "I just got my welfare check, time to hire a lawyer" is an even stranger take. Suing people is unpleasant and expensive and tends to favor people with money who can afford to hire effective lawyers, very few of whom will work for so little that they can be afforded on welfare. If people on welfare are suing someone, it's probably because they actually have a grievance with them…

To be fair just because you're on welfare doesn't mean there aren't issues you are concerned about enough to do extraordinary things about. Lowered expectations for the poor are another sort of negative generalization.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#856

Post by ironcurtain »

ivraatiems wrote: post #390
philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

You are projecting a scene from a movie to an unrelated business issue.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#857

Post by UncleMeat »

luckylion wrote: post #717
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been loads of recent articles and posts on HN about the type of content Kiwifarms hosts and promotes, easily findable from the HN search bar. Even people who disagree with Cloudflare's actions aren't debating the odiousness of Kiwifarms' content.

That's a different statement though. Twitter hosts some terrible content. Hell, Cloudflare provides CDN-services for some terrible content. But I'm sure you wouldn't say that therefore they exist for the "express purpose" of doing that.

Let's propose a test. We can scrape all of the tweets submitted in the last month and all of the posts on Kiwi Farms in the last month. Then let's count up the percentage of posts that contain a slur for black people, jewish people, or trans people. If the rate of slurs on KF is no more than 10x that of Twitter then we can consider these sites comparable. Otherwise, we can consider them to be in different categories.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#858

Post by rocket_surgeron »

bioemerl wrote: post #281
SinParadise wrote: post #95

De-platforming works.

This ability to "deplatform" is also what allows fascist nations to exist and keeps Putin in power today in Russia.

No.

In a free society business owners do whatever they want. That includes hosting content that runs counter to government positions, and the right to NOT HOST content they disagree with (for whatever reason, even financial or publicity-related reasons).

In Putin's Russia, organizations are forced to carry content they don't agree with, or they are prohibited.

That's not an exaggeration. If the government says you must publish an article about how awesome a new airplane or how righteous the orthodox church is, or how bad the evil Ukrainians are, you must do so.

Many free speech morons think that organizations should be forced to carry messages they disagree with... because freedom.

Freedom is being able to tell someone to fuck off.

Freedom is also having to deal with the consequences from the public if you tell the wrong person to fuck off or you don't tell a deserving person to fuck off.

What the free speech morons are proposing is so much worse than what we have now that the terror it could cause would be inconceivable, unless you're an anti-government journalist in Russia, of course. It's not inconceivable, it's your Monday.

It is so charming to see all of the fReE mArKeT lovers on HN twist themselves into pretzels when it comes to things like this.

It's not a hard concept but the free speech morons seem incapable of understanding it.

If the free speech morons had their way HN would be powerless to stop me from posting the addresses and phone numbers of people I disagree with.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#859

Post by jacooper »

golf1052 wrote: post #553
jacooper wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there even been a precedent of a domain being revoked for such a thing?

No it's never happened.

Let's hope it stays this way.

Its not that far fetched to imagine a campaign against verisign to remove a .com domain.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#860

Post by UncleMeat »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

Yet the "free speech absolutists" are absolutely nowhere to be found when the speech of groups other than right wing bigots are relevant to the discussion. If we must protect the speech of the most vile and disgusting and hateful and wretched monsters on the planet then surely we should also protect the speech of those who are oppressed and suffering. Where's that?
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