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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#851

Post by JPKab »

dang wrote: post #797
JPKab wrote: post #232

Do what I did in February: Quit. Life's too short to waste time at a company that's forgotten it's purpose. This ideology borders on cult like. A good sign that you are dealing with an irrational ideology is non-sensical, illogical and inconsisten rules. For example, in this article, "Black" is capitalized everywhere its mentioned, and "white" isn't. There's nothing logically consistent about this, because it's a bor…

Would you please stop posting ideological flamewar comments? Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052375 in this thread. We've had to ask you this multiple times in the past, also. That's not cool. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27044726 .

Sorry. I'll end my comments in this thread.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#852

Post by tshaddox »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #330
mpyne wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. This isn't the argument actually being made here, so if that's what DHH thought when he shut the thread down then that might explain part of the outcry. The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere , far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn i…

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

> An equally valid hypothesis is that harmlessly blowing off low-level steam prevents the atrocities higher up in the “pyramid”.

Umm, isn't the notion that catharsis is an effective method of anger reduction also at best controversial?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#853

Post by tshaddox »

JPKab wrote: post #714
SantalBlush wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They do not accept non-racist environments, only anti-racist ones. They do not accept that businesses be politically neutral. Perhaps they are the ones working toward a politically neutral, non-racist environment, and it is you who won't accept it. In truth, I don't believe either they or you could properly identify what a politically neutral environment really looks like, and you're probably all unreliable and serv…

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

I believe there is a lot of ground between "companies ought to issue every statement demanded by any employee" and "companies ought to explicitly prohibit any workplace discussion about anything that can remotely be considered political."

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#854

Post by ceejayoz »

BobbyJo wrote: post #850
ryanbrunner wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim they were contesting was that the poster couldn't find "a single example of systematic racism". Countering that doesn't require that every single person isn't racist, just that racism exists and has a measurable impact.

Then what does the word 'systemic' even mean?

There's a pretty good definition on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

> Institutional racism was defined by Sir William Macpherson in the UK's Lawrence report (1999) as: "The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#855

Post by JPKab »

dang wrote: post #797
JPKab wrote: post #232

Do what I did in February: Quit. Life's too short to waste time at a company that's forgotten it's purpose. This ideology borders on cult like. A good sign that you are dealing with an irrational ideology is non-sensical, illogical and inconsisten rules. For example, in this article, "Black" is capitalized everywhere its mentioned, and "white" isn't. There's nothing logically consistent about this, because it's a bor…

Would you please stop posting ideological flamewar comments? Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052375 in this thread. We've had to ask you this multiple times in the past, also. That's not cool. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27044726 .

Is there a way for me to go back and delete my offending comments? I'd like to do so, because I don't want to be a part of diminishing the community, and would like to make amends.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#856

Post by Rapzid »

bccdee wrote: post #279
throthro111 wrote: post #160

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

I doubt most of the people who resigned resigned because of that employee. They probably resigned because DHH decided that, because the discussion had made him uncomfortable, no one should be able to discuss anything "political" at work anymore. That's a very "take your ball and go home" attitude which I wouldn't want in my employer either. And given that this seems to be pretty normal behaviour for him, it was proba…

> They probably resigned because DHH decided that, because the discussion had made him uncomfortable

That's completely understating the entirety of what happened; the culmination of which seemed to be frivolous HR complaints. Has anyone disputed the details of the fuller context available through David's blogs and other sources?

> no one should be able to discuss anything "political" at work anymore

Can't they though? Here is what Jason had to say:

> 1. No more societal and political discussions on our company Basecamp account...People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#857

Post by anm89 »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #840
anm89 wrote: post #830

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the well known unforgivable crime of referencing that a publication with "a very specific political viewpoint" exists. I think this is a pretty good basis for upending someone's career.

Basecamp certainly seems to think so, but not that particular viewpoint. Funny, that. Again, your "explanation" is not good faith.

My explanation was made in good faith. I believe this.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#858

Post by philosopher1234 »

sol_invictus wrote: post #625
philosopher1234 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comes off as though you didn't even read the comment you're replying to. I don't see how you can, in good faith, frame their point as "the most miniscule issue".

Lets try it the other way around - convince me that the issue at hand isn’t way overblown. I promise to try to be as objective as possible.

Thats what the original comment did, and you neglected all of their points.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#859

Post by raarts »

throwawayboise wrote: post #485
throthro111 wrote: post #160

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

Most CEOs are egotistic. Most of the ones I have worked for are actually beyond that, they are narcissistic to the point of sociopathy.

There has been research on this topic and it was estimated that 10% of CEO's has psychopathic traits. Plenty of resources online.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#860

Post by asabjorn »

etchalon wrote: post #752
asabjorn wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a counter argument? Do you think such a person should be trusted or do you think this is not how the activism works? If it’s about my comment on trust: You are welcome to trust someone that use these power tactics based upon lies to undermine the moral authority of viewpoint opponents, I just believe there are so many people of better character out there to build a relationship with. Social justice tactic…

I don't have a counter-argument because having one would require accepting your premise. Your hair is a bird.

It’s nonsense that you have to accept a premise to argue against it. That’s exactly what I did. On this website it’s expected that if you don’t have an argument, don’t make one.

With your assertion in mind that there is no issues with the activist technique. Do you denounce pedofilia? Do you denounce defrauding elderly relatives? See how this activist technique works, no answer is good and the question is directed at you as a potential complicit person, and using it is in my opinion a sure sign of a worse character than what I’d like to engage with.

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