The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May • Hacker News Board

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#851

Post by filoleg » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

nkohari wrote: post #520

filoleg wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess for the main reason Reddit feels so toxic would be younger demographic whose primary concern is demonstrating how much "smarter" they are than an average person. The commenting guidelines are also super lax, and the topics covered are very diverse. Which is mostly the opposite of HN, which skews older and actually more educated, comment guidelines are much stricter, and the topics covered are much more techn…

> My guess for the main reason Reddit feels so toxic would be younger demographic whose primary concern is demonstrating how much "smarter" they are than an average person. > Which is mostly the opposite of HN You must be new here. :)

Not at all, as the spectrum of this phenomenon matters.

While I can definitely see a lot of people trying to show off how smart they are on HN, they are doing it through demonstrating things and making solid arguments. On Reddit, that is usually done through personal attacks and demonstrating themselves.

So many times I went on reddit and saw someone making a solid argument, only to be derailed by someone going through their comment history and bringing it up as a "aha, gotcha" point in an argument. Even in cases where it shouldn't matter, something like seeing a poster getting downvoted to hell just because one of their comments wasn't critical enough of Trump in an argument that had nothing to do with politics and was purely technical.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#852

Post by cabaalis » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #355

cabaalis wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are laws which give these powers IANAL, but I know some of you are so I'm asking here. I've read that challenges to these orders will not succeed because of emergency declarations. The emergency declarations are supposedly backed by some law, correct? Don't we have a document in the national archives that guarantees things like peaceable assembly and not prohibiting exercise of religion? Yet we have people be…

If you're really interested in the topic, the podcast "All the President's Lawyers" discussed that this week. But in short, you can't read a couple of sentences from the constitution literally and expect that to override a couple hundred years of judicial interpretation. Regarding the first amendment in particular, one relevant area of law is "time, place, and manner". E.g., just because you have free speech doesn't…

Thank you, this was very helpful. Also glad to see a link to my alma mater.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#853

Post by makomk » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #839

makomk wrote: post #777

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The only country where this seems to have even vaguely worked is South Korea, and the US is already testing much more people for coronavirus than South Korea even in per-capita terms. Has been for a while. Now, the New York Times editorial board has been pushing the idea that you're behind South Korea because more of your tests are coming back positive - but the way they dropped that number is by using stricter socia…

I don't care what the comparison to South Korea is, and I don't expect other countries to have already achieved this. I care whether testing is widely available enough that a person who finds out that they had dinner with someone last night who has coronavirus can go and get tested immediately, not wait until they are short of breath and feverish. Perhaps you would like to read Dr Fauci talking about why we need more…

If no country has ever achieved this, what's even the evidence that it's actually possible? There are some pretty fundamental reasons to think it wouldn't work, not least of which are asymptomatic, pre-symptomatic and barely symptomatic spread, and the fairly impressive R0 of this particular disease. If the person you're having dinner with doesn't have symptoms and you have a slight sniffle, how do you even know to get tested?

Also, how the amount of coronavirus testing the US is doing stacks up to other countries isn't an "particular opinion" - it's a fact, and it's a fact that pretty much the entire US press seems to have managed to misinform everyone about, including the fact check columns.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#854

Post by jshevek » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

koyote wrote: post #543

filoleg wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess for the main reason Reddit feels so toxic would be younger demographic whose primary concern is demonstrating how much "smarter" they are than an average person. The commenting guidelines are also super lax, and the topics covered are very diverse. Which is mostly the opposite of HN, which skews older and actually more educated, comment guidelines are much stricter, and the topics covered are much more techn…

I think the upvoting mechanism is quite a large differentiator as well. Upvotes should be for 'contributes to discussion' not for 'I agree'. But it's universally used an agreement/disagreement button on Reddit which amplifies the hivemind massively. That plus the fact that downvoting is only granted once you've spent a considerable amount of time participating in the community can have a huge impact on the nature of…

Your last point is less impactful recently, as opposed to years ago. Years ago one needed to making numerous substantive contributions to earn downvoting power. Recently, a critical mass of users has been rewarding participants in reddit style humor threads and snarky comments, allowing new users to accumulate upvotes without substance, and without experiencing the more measured culture of traditional HN.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#855

Post by fullshark » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #843

fullshark wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things will always be better in terms of testing / tracing / treatment options in a month, in June if we just wait until July things would be in a better place. Ultimately this is going to be about buying time for as long as is politically and economically possible. If more and more states open up and their situation doesn't look like a disaster because they are not as dense as NYC with almost 4 million people taking…

You're arguing as though "better testing/tracing" is an amorphous goal that keeps moving, when people are actually talking about quite specific and quantifiable goals. For instance, in WA: "The recovery plan begins with widely available testing for individuals who may have contracted COVID-19, tracing for those who have come into close contact with COVID-19 positive individuals, and isolation or quarantine for indivi…

Fair enough, I wasn't aware the exact number of tests per day was quantified. Let's see if they stick to that goal and achieve it, or revise requirements next month if they learn the R0 isn't as large as thought in certain regions or we have beneficial climate effects, etc.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#856

Post by sanderjd » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #833

sanderjd wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My actual point is that this is an ideologically driven distraction, not a real policy debate.

I was speaking just to the argument made by dragonwriter that, because something is banned, the possibility has no impact. If you think this was motivated by an ideological objection to government assistance... well, you're mistaken, because I don't have one of those. I can't speak to anything up-thread.

Ok you're right, maybe I have two points: I think this distraction is driven by ideology and partly maintained by (or taking advantage of) pedantry. It is far too tempting for logically-minded pedants to say "but you can clearly see what the numbers show", which is true, but is not a useful point except as further fuel for the distraction.

The real problem we're going to have is people struggling to find jobs as demand ramps back up slowly in fits and starts. This whole conversation is an attempt to portray those struggling people as the problem. It is indirection, like in a magic trick. And the pedantic "well actually"s are falling for the trap.

It's a real bummer because it's definitely going to work, which is going to cause us to underinvest in unemployment insurance over time, which is going to make this even more painful than it was already going to be. It would just be nice if people could see that they're being played.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#857

Post by sanderjd » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #700

dragonwriter wrote: post #435

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Again, unemployment requires you to actively search for work and accept offered employment or you lose benefits. Higher benefits don't create an incentive to voluntarily stay out of work since you can't have them if you do that.

The CARES Act extends unemployment benefits through the end of 2020 delegates to the states what the job search requirement means. States have a strong incentive to interpret it loosely because the federal government is footing the bill. Additionally, the “offered employment” thing is not hard and fast line. Restrictions will be lifted incrementally—there will be no “everyone back to work moment.” Businesses with fur…

Businesses are going to have trouble finding enough customers to support the staff they do hire, not this fantasy problem of having trouble finding staff.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#858

Post by gnopgnip » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

TechBro8615 wrote: post #618

gnopgnip wrote: post #589

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CA unemployment is near $1000 a week with the federal stimulus.

It’s naive to think this works for everyone. Independent contractors are getting screwed. Small businesses are getting screwed. Sure, there are some solutions on paper, but for a lot of people they have not come to fruition yet. Edit: People downvoting me are proving my point about being naive. I’m giving my input as someone who is in a much different position than most of the privileged commenters here. Feel free to…

Independent contractor, self employed, and gig workers can get unemployment now because of the stimulus bill even though they aren't normally be eligible. If you are making substantially less than before you can get partial unemployment, and it could make sense to quit working and quarantine given the benefits and your economic prospects. I agree that this won't work for everyone though. The bay area specifically has more people with jumbo loans, and these are not federally backed and part of the forbearance program. The cost of living in the bay area is higher, so this stimulus will not go as far as many places. The cost of healthcare is still a concern if you get sick, even with insurance.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#859

Post by asdff » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

s17n wrote: post #834

asdff wrote: post #734

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The strategy is slowing the spread. Elimination was impossible the day the virus left wuhan. We can't lift restrictions to meet hospital capacity because that is an extremely dangerous gamble, especially when all our numbers on the spread of this disease are bound to be underestimates.

"Slowing the spread" isn't a strategy, it's a tactic. What is the goal, and why? How are we going to achieve that goal?

The goal is to not overwhelm the medical system. We are achieving that goal currently by not overwhelming the medical system. The strategy is working right now, no reason to balk from it if it's getting desired results as this pandemic runs its course.

I'm a little confused about your semantics, so I fell down the hole. A strategy is the plan of action itself to achieve a goal, and the tactic is the action or strategy to achieve the goal. Slowing the spread seems to fit both definitions depending on how you word your sentences.

Re: The San Francisco Bay Area shelter-in-place order is being extended through May

#860

Post by doc_gunthrop » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #770

sdoering wrote: post #763

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No. It just isn't following the "whataboutism" logic. Following this we could say: As there are always young able people in need, why care for old or disabled people who doo not contribute to society and only cost society's money? Why "donate" taxes for care facilities and such unnecessary stuff?

You're taking this too far. Stop trying to do that. There is an island on which there are hungry people and hungry dogs. There is a limited pool of donor funds. The fact that there are people asking for money for the dogs before all the people on that little island have full bellies is just sad. The dogs will feel no pain from being put to sleep. Nobody can, will, or wants to even suggest that the children be put to…

> The fact that there are people asking for money for the dogs before all the people on that little island have full bellies is just sad.

You're operating on the assumption that the people with the means to donate prioritize human life over a dog's life, which isn't always the case.