Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#851

Post by ryanbrunner » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 12:50 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #724

Akujin wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first sentence is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact. You know how I know you're actually a shill? > And don't even start with the car-thing. An individual psycho does not compare to organized widely accepted violence. Whataboutism in literally the next paragraph: > What…

We have come to the point where comments in here is accusing an other HN commenter of being a shill and doing Whataboutism. Maybe we should take a step back and focus on what, if anything, the disagreement is about? How would you formulate a general law which forbids only neo-nazi organizations and neo-nazi demonstrations? The first thing that comes to my mind is a law against organizations that write that they inten…

I think there's two paths that seem like they might be worthwhile to pursue:

1. Remove the "imminent" requirement of the incitement restrictions on free speech. Currently, speech is already prohibited if it's an incitement to imminent lawless action and is likely to result in lawless action. I personally don't see all that much reason why "Go kill that specific jew with this bat" is substantially different than "All jews should be killed".

2. Ban specific iconography such as swastikas, white hoods, etc. I don't think frankly this is all that effective, supremacists can easily just take on a new symbol. But there's precedent in other countries and I don't think there's a slippery slope if every icon requires seperate prohibitions.

Note in both of these cases these ban the speech / symbols themselves, and not the groups. I don't think there's any way you can ban an organization altogether in any reasonable way.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#852

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 12:51 PM UTC

I can't wait for the day that society figures out that individuals, small groups of people and big groups of people need different rules when it comes to what is and isn't free speech.

A small bakery not putting a confederate flag or a rainbow or a swastiaka on a cake or conversely being compelled by law to do so if requested is different than Google or Cloudflare kicking out a customer for their speech or being legally compelled not to.

I think Cloudlfare was in the right. The Daily Stormer was pretty stupid to say that Cloudflare supported or agreed with them and got kicked out.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#853

Post by CJKinni » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 12:59 PM UTC

wvh wrote: post #821

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

But I want to know exactly what and how the people who "hate" me think. The idea that censorship solves the problem is pretty flawed; I assume Trump got elected in part by people who felt they couldn't speak their own thoughts out loud anymore. Just like with the Google memo, you create silent resentment instead of keeping a debate open (in as far as some of these people are capable of debate – that's another discuss…

>> But I want to know exactly what and how the people who "hate" me think.

Then go ask them. If there are people that you think probably hate you nearby, I am almost sure there are places in a city where you could go to talk to them.

I know, personally, there has never been a time where I couldn't call the right evangelical church and find out exactly why I am hated.

I've experienced my share of drunk homophobic comments in my direction that do occasionally get violent. I certainly now where to go to find out 'exactly what and how the people who "hate" me think,' I don't for a minute believe they need the internet, let alone cloudflare, to achieve this goal.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#854

Post by ryanbrunner » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:01 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #631

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

> "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ " Calling for persecution of literal inciting of violence is hardly a "extremist left" idea. In fact it's not even left-or-right issue.

The problem is for the most part very few (no?) people are calling for explicit violence, even really abstract violence. Calling for muslim bans, border walls, deportation of illegal or even legal immigrants, restricting immigration to "white" countries and honouring racist war "heroes" are all abhorrent and racist views, but they are all clearly not inciting violence in any way.

How do you restrict the speech of people who advocate for white supremacy in non-violent ways? You could specifically ban white supremacy, but such a narrowly targeted law would probably lead to more radicalization.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#855

Post by losvedir » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:04 PM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

> The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups.

This is an extremely frightening statement to me. I'm terrified by the fact that you'd paint me as a Nazi sympathizer because my meta-level beliefs that text and speech should be protected are stronger than my object-level beliefs that Nazi philosophy is evil.

The Nazis are not reviled today because they had disgusting beliefs. They're reviled because they actually murdered millions of innocent citizens.

I'm okay with neonazis saying disgusting things, as long as they play by the rules and don't commit any violence. (Hell, people brought AK-47's and AR-15's to Charlottesville but didn't use them, despite the violent clashes.) Whatever happened to "sticks and stones"? Do kids not learn that mantra anymore?

To be clear, this is a separate question from whether major internet infrastructure providers should be considered de facto public systems and fall under the 1st amendment. I don't think they should, so I think this falls within Cloudflare's rights (although I wish they had done otherwise). I'm just objecting to the characterization that the only people who could possibly object to Cloudflare here are neonazis or their sympathizers.

For what it's worth, I tried to find the Daily Stormer site to see what it is they actually advocate for, but I was unable to. I'm not sure if it's because of the domain name issues, Cloudflare, Google search or what, but it's a little disconcerting to me that ideas can be so easily expunged from the internet. So much for the "right to forget" controversy - I guess it is possible after all, if the companies were motivated to do so.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#856

Post by norea-armozel » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

I'm not sure this is a good idea since Cloudflare came out initially in favor of maintaining their account. Mind you, I don't like Nazis and frankly I don't care that they lost their account but it's bad for a business to change its mind so quickly. Honestly, I say let the fascists have their crappy site, just don't help them monetize it. Let's see if they can keep up with their "recruitment" when it's clear the only class of people they can garner support from are the kind that spout nonsense like Alex Jones or worse.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#857

Post by scrumper » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:05 PM UTC

FooHentai wrote: post #738

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

"If a society is tolerant without limit, their ability to be tolerant will eventually be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Popper came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance IMO this is the ideal rebuttal to the 'be tolerant' argument.

Nassim Taleb talks a bit about this in his draft book on Medium. There's a concept of group renormalization which is quite interesting in relation to hardliner absolutists and how the majority must inevitably accommodate their positions.

https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#858

Post by z0r » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

matttproud wrote: post #591

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

An atmosphere of free speech that allows for satire and conversation are the best weapons against extremist ideology.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#859

Post by _b8r0 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:08 PM UTC

FooHentai wrote: post #738

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

"If a society is tolerant without limit, their ability to be tolerant will eventually be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Popper came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance IMO this is the ideal rebuttal to the 'be tolerant' argument.

> IMO this is the ideal rebuttal to the 'be tolerant' argument.

It's an interesting point, but at what point does the intolerance of intolerance become intolerance in it's own right?

If the compromise on things we stand for (Freedom of speech, due process, equality for all) where is the line where we cease to be the things we claim to stand for?

FWIW I'm all for charging Nazis with crimes and putting them in jail whenever they commit them. I would be happier if they weren't covered in the media at all. I'd be over the moon if they didn't exist. But if we allow mob rule (which negates the rule of law) to take over, then we risk claiming to stand for things that we do not.

Popper's Paradox illustrates the theoretical. I would argue as a counterpoint that we're successfully as a society not tolerant without limit because of the rule of law.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#860

Post by norea-armozel » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

meric wrote: post #752

mbrock wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…

> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? Does someone being a member of t…

Let me ask you this then. If a homeless Nazi begged me for a dollar to get a McMuffin (not sure if those are on the dollar menu but take it as part of the hypothetical here) so they won't starve that day and I refuse to give them a dollar because they are an unrepentant Nazi, am I a bad person?

At what point do I as an individual have the right to not associate with a group or ideology that's seeks my destruction? Because that's really what's at the heart of the matter whether we're talking about Cloudflare or just me because I'm sure that Cloudflare has Jews, racial minorities, and LGBT folks on their staff. And I'm sure even some of those folks are even investors. So why should the investors and employees of Cloudflare protect Nazis who seek their destruction? For money? I can accept that it's a matter of profit, but if you're asking for a moral basis to aid those that want to kill you I can't see there being any argument in favor of protecting or aiding them.