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What I Heard from Trump Supporters

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#851

Post by mikeash »

rabbyte wrote: post #846
mikeash wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the first part. Which views being expressed openly today couldn't have been expressed openly in the past?

The views our political system is currently normalizing. The ones that enable white supremacists to occupy the highest levels of government office. The ones that claim Michelle Obama is anti-american for saying she hasn't always been proud of her country while Trump can be elected on a platform that America is not great and defend Putin as a "killer" by claiming we're not so innocent.

Those have been expressed for a long time. Some are getting more popular (white supremacist stuff) and some are coming from different people (saying America kills people and has no moral high ground was usually a leftist thing) but I don't see anything being said that outright couldn't before.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#852

Post by rabbyte »

mikeash wrote: post #851
rabbyte wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The views our political system is currently normalizing. The ones that enable white supremacists to occupy the highest levels of government office. The ones that claim Michelle Obama is anti-american for saying she hasn't always been proud of her country while Trump can be elected on a platform that America is not great and defend Putin as a "killer" by claiming we're not so innocent.

Those have been expressed for a long time. Some are getting more popular (white supremacist stuff) and some are coming from different people (saying America kills people and has no moral high ground was usually a leftist thing) but I don't see anything being said that outright couldn't before.

You're being literal? Yes, these views have seen daylight. No, these views haven't until recently been acceptable for those holding public office.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#853

Post by iak8god »

dahart wrote: post #849
iak8god wrote: post #848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Near the bottom, "Please resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." I have always read that as meaning that a commenter should resist commenting about having one's own comment downvoted . The comment you responded to above was making an interesting point (I thought) about someone else being downvoted, which seemed to me to be more in line with the spirit of the gu…

I agree, and I read it the same way, but it is widely interpreted as resist commenting about downvotes at all. Furthermore, it seems to be widely interpreted as a strict rule rather than a suggested guideline. Since the guideline isn't specific, there's certainly room for varied interpretation. And since many people exercise their downvotes based on their own interpretation, I find I'm happier if I avoid the issue by…

Ah yes, I'd confused you with @JoeAltmaier. Good takeaway :)

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#854

Post by muzz »

The TL;DR quote" from the the piece was: "You all can defeat Trump next time, but not if you keep mocking us, refusing to listen to us, and cutting us out."

This is a perfect example of do as I say, not as I do. The candidate these people supported mocked almost everyone-- a physically disabled reporter, a senator due to Native American ancestry "Pocahontas", the "lying press", etc.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#855

Post by intended »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #837
intended wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's natural. Maybe people haven't seen it in America before, but this happens all the time. Radicalism begets radical responses over enough of a time line. People in this thread keep feeling disheartened or calling out liberals enclaves - but they completely forget that this is only 3 weeks into Trumps presidency. As a candidate he was frightening to liberals, in a way no American presidential candidate has been in…

I don't care how liberal groups feel. I care how they act . And how they are acting is contrary to both liberalism and liberty. (Conservatives are not acting conservatively, either...)

If you don't quite care about how people feel, you lose the position to judge how they act.

Human actions ultimately find their motivation in emotions, not in rationality.

Besides- that's a belief unmoored from reality.

There's a fight going on, and one side has been using techniques to dismantle every institution and source of strength of the other. Youll have reached the point that even facts itself are under question.

The period of following ideals died a while back. Either liberals learn from the political play book of the conservatives, or they disappear.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#856

Post by joelx »

QML wrote: post #791
Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

Honestly, as a moderate, I feel as if this country has turned into two divorced parents who are willing to sacrifice the future of their children just to get back at one another. At the moment, people seem to be voting for the candidates that's the biggest "fuck you" to other side, neglecting the fact that a country is best when the interests of all its citizens are put at heart.

This comment is right on and needs more attention.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#857

Post by mikeash »

rabbyte wrote: post #852
mikeash wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those have been expressed for a long time. Some are getting more popular (white supremacist stuff) and some are coming from different people (saying America kills people and has no moral high ground was usually a leftist thing) but I don't see anything being said that outright couldn't before.

You're being literal? Yes, these views have seen daylight. No, these views haven't until recently been acceptable for those holding public office.

Strom Thurmond didn't die that long ago, for example. A mere half century ago, these things were not only acceptable for elected officials to say, they were acceptable to enact into law.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#858

Post by mikeash »

synicalx wrote: post #787
mikeash wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this idea that we can't talk about these things. Right now the entire national government is run by people who have no trouble talking about these things, and much worse. Not only can you openly discuss them, but you can successfully get elected President while doing so. You can't say, "We can't even discuss this stuff. That's why Trump won." The very idea contradicts itself.

I think you're confusing an election with public discourse. You can vote in anonymity and no one has to know who you voted for. You can't get on social media (for example) and openly support anything even remotely Trump without copping at least some backlash. Trump won because people have their own personal beliefs and ideas which they take with them into the polling booths.

I'm not talking about the voters, I'm talking about Trump himself. He talked about this stuff in pretty reprehensible ways, and his "punishment" was being elected. This is contrary to the idea that mere mention of these topics leads to ostracism and career death.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#859

Post by lkbm »

convoces wrote: post #236
Yhippa wrote: post #40

This one gave me the most pause: > “Silicon Valley is incredibly unwelcoming to alternative points of view. Your curiosity, if it is sincere, is the very rare exception to the rule.” Substitute "Silicon Valley" for any major liberal enclaves, like universities and cities, and I think you see the same thing. I am skeptical by nature and try to take a scientific view of new ideas. However I feel like I get shouted down…

>try to take a scientific view >People start throwing link after link of facts You get upset when people present you with links to facts to respond to your proposed ideas? I can sympathize that it is definitely no fun if you feel like your ideas aren't getting the attention they deserve, but if you have trouble defending the ideas in the face of factual sources, maybe it's possible that one could reconsider those ide…

> >People start throwing link after link of facts

> You get upset when people present you with links to facts to respond to your proposed ideas?

Facts do not make an argument. Most scientists agree that GMOs are safe for human consumption as currently regulated in the US, but if you try to say that, many people will respond with a bunch of facts:

* Some GMOs allow us to use more pesticides.

* Monsanto patents seeds.

* Government regulations are often skewed by corporate interests.

* Genetic engineering can have dangerous side-effects.

These are all facts. They're all true. They all should be considered when evaluating the safety of genetically modified foods.

But they're not used in conjunction with the rest of the facts to come up with a measured, thoughtful position. They're used to shut down the discussion and "win".

That's a problem. It's not just a problem for people who "have trouble defending the ideas in the face of factual sources". They're a problem for anyone interested in finding a truth or a reasonable position that extends beyond a collection of cherry-picked facts.

Re: What I Heard from Trump Supporters

#860

Post by lkbm »

> The attacks against Trump have taught me something about myself. I have defended him and said things I really didn't believe or support because I was put in a defensive position. Protesters may have pushed many people in this direction BUT it is ultimately our responsibility and must stop.

It's nice of this person to take responsibility for their defensiveness, but for those of us who wants to convince Trump voters to oppose Trump, it's as much our responsibility to stop pushing people into a defensive position.

We need to use whatever methods are most effective, and as this blog post makes clear (and should already have been clear), attacking and belittling Trump voters isn't going to win them over. It's cathartic, but we need to win elections, not win catharsis.

It's time to stop trying to win points in an argument and try winning the support of the other half the country. sama is putting in a lot of time and effort in the early stages of doing just that--we'd do well to take note and join him.

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