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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#841

Post by hobbit125 »

jacobtracey wrote: post #779
jabelk wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It's just extraordinarily discouraging to be constantly reminded of a problem so deeply ingrained in millions of people that it couldn't possibly be completely addressed in my lifetime. It's pretty hard to stare into the abyss of those types of problems.

It must be tough, doing your internship, dealing with all these bros that are making apps and giving them away for free and calling them whatever they want. You need to reevaluate your perspective. There are people starving to death, dying of cancer, mass riots in the Ukraine as we speak and this is to you, I quote, "literally the worst part of my day".

What a great argument. "There are other more serious problems going on, therefore this one is completely irrelevant."

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#842

Post by hobbit125 »

argumentum wrote: post #828
Jtsummers wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Culture on television has rarely matched culture in real life, IME. At best it's an exaggeration, but more often it's just a fabrication. 2) They certainly can, but in this culture it's not uncommon for guys to come back on Monday bragging about the "chicks" they banged, or tried to bang. And that's the sort of language they use. It's crass and classless, and off-putting to many people (not just women, but as they…

1) Are you saying this culture is more common amongst programmers than say i-bankers? If so, I think you're delusional or you've never been in manhattan at night. 2) I've never heard my friends who are girls complain about getting in free without cover to nightclubs/bars when guys had to pay cover, and they are well aware of why this is happening. This is a culture that most people buy into without question .. I'm no…

>I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just our culture

Let me say it for you then: It's bad.

>If you want to change it, then say that's what you want to change, don't go after hackers who, in my experience, are far less into this culture than other demographics.

"Other people are worse, so these guys are okay."

Yeah, no. Maybe the reason that so many of us are going after hacker culture first is because it is a culture that we are a part of and one that we would like to see make positive changes on these issues first.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#843

Post by hobbit125 »

LinXitoW wrote: post #456
mscarborough wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, we have enough issues with improving women's place in STE. It's not like we need to invent new ways to keep technology male. I've helped different women with less experience in commandline stuff and linux/unix in general. In the workplace, and with tutoring middle/high school kids of both genders. If I ever had to say "go check the manpage, and the bropage" I would feel like a huge asshole.

Why is the "man" page somehow better?

Because of context.

I know that's lost on a lot of people here, but it's pretty important when considering things like this.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#844

Post by hobbit125 »

jcromartie wrote: post #838
glesica wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His whole point was that what is on that page IS hostile to many women in the community or thinking about joining it. You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. If the authors had wanted this to be a cute in-joke for the bros, then why did they publish it to the entire world? Why not just send it around to their male friends, but use a more appropriate (and they KNEW the name wasn't appropriate becau…

> You don't get to decide what offends or hurts other people. While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions. There is someone out there to be offended for everything you could imagine. Implying that homosexuality is OK or that the universe is billions of years old will offend literally millions of people in the US alone. Implying that women should be allowed…

>While this is of course true, I do not believe that what offends other people should dictate our actions

But it does. Every day. You'd have a pretty hard time if you had absolutely zero filter on what you said to other people and absolutely no concern for other people's feelings.

>It would be ridiculous to cater to those people's sensitivities!

You're comparing religious suppression of women and homosexuals to creating a conducive and friendly environment for women in technology. These are literally the opposite things.

It's like saying "we can't have laws against killing people just because we find it morally reprehensible! some people find allowing gay people to live morally reprehensible! any law at all just puts on a slippery slope toward executing homosexuals!"

>And I feel that it is silly to worry about things like the word "bro".

Again, it has nothing to do with what you find silly or frivolous. This isn't about you. Until you are truly able to understand that, you're never going to get anywhere on truly understanding issues like this.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#845

Post by JackpotDen »

blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Would it be better if they were 'woman' pages?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#846

Post by reallyseriously »

aaren wrote: post #730
reallyseriously wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the part where I should say something about how they need to "toughen up" and they must be "too sensitive"? jk. That's actually a real shame. I'm not going to venture a guess at the % of threads that any woman would find offensive but always thought HN was roughest on people's work when seeking feedback, etc.

There are threads like this one that become explicitly about gender. They aren't particularly inviting. Sometimes they make the front page, in which case there is a semblance of discussion. They aren't a great advert for hn as an inclusive space though. In general the problem is more with the atmosphere in threads that aren't explicitly about gender. This means things like the language that people use or the assumpti…

If we're talking about for example, a woman being the first one on the team everyone expects will take notes, I identify with someone that feels it is the symptom of a larger problem very easily. Same with things like, "C'mon guys, deadline coming up" and "Oh, you're not just working the booth?" Common sense stuff.

Of course, if someone gets offended they aren't "right" by default. The word "bro" is not offensive but people are using it to shoehorn in bigger issues they feel passionately about. It's like when someone is rabid about politics and tries to force it into conversations (thinking of an old family member here that goes on about Obama being a socialist at the drop of a hat). Clearly, the list you linked to is, for the most part reasonable. But reading this thread, there's that same propagandized vibe of people who have lost perspective.

On the other hand, there's a comment in here about a guy who said the people who used to beat him up used the word "bro" all the time. He was obviously traumatized by that, so his visceral reaction to the word is completely understandable. I can only speculate that others in this thread that genuinely are offended by the word "bro" in this context have had experiences that make them react similarly, whether it's physical assault, things said to them or being marginalized at work. I can have empathy for these people, but it doesn't make naming this tool bropages offensive.

Edit for clarity.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#847

Post by simonask »

jacobtracey wrote: post #837
xamebax wrote: post #836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you didn't think that. I think your confusion stems from the fact that, when speaking about IRC, one speaks also about the community that uses IRC -- without the people using IRC, it would be useless, since its aim is to make communication possible. I'm a bit surprised this wasn't taken into account. > That, by any definition, is 'gender neutral'. No, because women receive shit and most users are considered…

Why do you need to tell people your gender on a communications medium that doesn't require you to? I don't consider anyone to be male or female on IRC, they're just users. The thing I always loved about IRC was that even when I was 12 years old, people took me seriously, not because I was male, or white, or an adult, but because I was thoughtful and intelligent - age in this case being the key differentiating factor.…

So the thing you might be missing is that even when you think you're being appreciated for your intelligence, people have still been assuming that you are both white and male (and on IRC back in the day, probably a teen or young adult).

It's folly to think that you are free of prejudice with the only basis that you don't consciously hold these prejudices, because we (humanity, science) know for a fact that biases are much more deeply ingrained in most of us.

This is particularly hard for our demographic (programmers et al) to hear, because we consider ourselves rational. We like to think that we do things because we have thought them through. But all evidence points to the fact that we are just as susceptible to biases and prejudice as everyone else. Indeed, nobody seems to be free of it, but there is a silver lining: with an analytical approach, it is possible to examine biases and become aware of them, and eventually work through them.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#848

Post by argumentum »

hobbit125 wrote: post #842
argumentum wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Are you saying this culture is more common amongst programmers than say i-bankers? If so, I think you're delusional or you've never been in manhattan at night. 2) I've never heard my friends who are girls complain about getting in free without cover to nightclubs/bars when guys had to pay cover, and they are well aware of why this is happening. This is a culture that most people buy into without question .. I'm no…

>I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just our culture Let me say it for you then: It's bad. >If you want to change it, then say that's what you want to change, don't go after hackers who, in my experience, are far less into this culture than other demographics. "Other people are worse, so these guys are okay." Yeah, no. Maybe the reason that so many of us are going after hacker culture first is because it is a cult…

>because it is a culture that we are a part of

We are also part of the larger culture. The strategy of going after the use of the semi-word "bro" is going to be entirely ineffectual in reaching the outcome you want.

Reasons:

1. Women are equal participants in the larger culture you claim to abhor. This goes back all the way to childhood, the sports kids play, the clothes you wear, the toys they get etc, who asks who to prom, etc.

2. Failing to participate in that larger culture (i.e. buying girls drinks etc) means you will not realize the benefits of being cool or popular.

3. Even the tiny % of people who are hackers decide to forgo what they had never really had a lot of (popularity, acceptance etc), the effect on society as a whole will be minimal.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#849

Post by argumentum »

serge2k wrote: post #835
argumentum wrote: post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a culture than women do not fit into? Are women not allowed to go into bars and "hit on" guys? Women are 1/2 of the equation here, if there were no women in bars, guys would have nobody to "hit on". Btw, this is a phenomenon is certainly not any more common than in other professions .. watch any television show about cops, lawyers, bankers or doctors .. it's just our culture.

Right, they are, sure. But what women is going to go out with the team of 5-6 guys to do that? Of course that begs the question, would a lot of these problems be lessened if there was simply more women? You can hardly ask guys to stop forming friendships based on things that will often exclude women. It's going to happen. It's a problem when women find their careers suffering because of it, or when they don't get a c…

Of course it's a problem, but the solution can't be telling people who to be friends with, what to do with their friends and how to talk.

These tactics will simply not achieve anything, other than breeding resentment.

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