Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just because you are confused about the distinction between gender and sex doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Birth certificates record sex, not gender, no?
Theoretically, yes. But, sometimes, they do get it wrong.
Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
841–850 of 960 posts
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#842Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Nobody is banned from the "men's" category, including unambiguously cisgender women of completely unambiguous sexual characteristics. This is exactly my point. Men with unusual characteristics are celebrated, but women with unusual characteristics are excluded into a non-competitive category. You can justify it if you'd like, but in a practical sense, no man will ever get to the Olympics only to be turned away becau…
Adults can't compete in kids' categories either, not even in boys' or young men'. What an indignity, to be forced to compete fairly. Womp-womp.
Respectfully, I don't think you're engaging with what I'm actually saying here.
No adults are training their way to the kid-lympics and then getting cut open and surprised by the count of the rings.
Also, the idea of "fairness" is overstated, a naturalist just-so fallacy. Is it "fair" that some male athletes are taller or shorter than others, or have other genetic advantages, for example?
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#843Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The passive voice language here is really bizarre. Who is doing the assigning? Typically the parents and doctors. "You have a beautiful baby girl!" Is assigning a gender
No, this is an observation. What, do the parents and doctors flip a coin or throw darts before "assigning" a "gender"?
One cannot ask a baby what social role they would like to have. Typically, in approximately 97-99% of cases, that aligns with the genitalia. So no, no coin flip. It's typically done by looking at genitalia. You'll be right almost always.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#844Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for clarifying. Not being of USA I didn't even consider the angle about having to pay for government ID - it's a very alien concept for us in eastern europe at least. Election fraud on the other hand.. this we are very familiar with. Reaction to the coverage of last three US presidential elections was mostly "oh, how cute, such naive first attempts". So from our PoV there most certainly were widespread attempt…
> from our PoV there most certainly were widespread attempts to rig them, mostly from Dem side Oof, I feel bad for whatever news network you are getting your American coverage from. You might want to look into who owns that news network. This is a very common political message specifically originating from the Republican Party’s media network (e.g., Murdoch-owned media, Turning Point USA, etc).
To "get coverage from a news network" is ignorance bordering on pure madness.
They are almost exclusively propaganda and manipulation and as such the only useful signal that can be extracted is something like "how those people chose to frame certain events they feel they can't ignore in hopes of them going unnoticed". Note I'm talking about our local ones, in my opinion yours do not differ materially in this aspect.
So no. I'm not parroting after a talking head on some network or other (the thought itself is mildly insulting). For an interesting incident (and election-related stuff was interesting enough) what one does is gather as much coverage as possible and then try to reconstruct what event could have lead to this set of framings.
What I wrote is somewhat of a consensus between us old hands of many years experience resisting election fraud, with hands-on knowledge of how it's done, how to fight it, how attempts at covering it up look like and how people that prefer to believe it never happens behave.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#845Headline is inaccurate. Transgender athletes are not barred from women's events. Female athletes who identify as men, or otherwise do not identify as women, can still compete in this category, as they have been doing already. What the IOC's new policy actually does is make male athletes ineligible for competition in the female category, with very few exceptions. These exceptions are for athletes who are technically m…
Transgender women aren’t ’male athletes’
Yes they are. What you identify as doesn’t change factual data.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#846Earlier quoted context omitted.
You've posted this several times, and I think it represents a pretty narrow understanding of humans. Like, gender clearly and obviously exists. Why do women wear make up and skirts, while men typically dont? Is there a biological need to do those things? Is that universal across all cultures? Of course we have social norms for men and women. That set of norms is what gender is . Denying the idea that society expects…
There's no such thing as gender separate from sex. There's the recognition of one's immutable, inherent, sex, and tacking social expectations on top of it, but never that one could choose, or "feel". Always derived, never a choice. And when people allowed cross-dressing, it was always clear it was fake, pretending, never true. But they allowed people to have their personal delusions. The origin of this use of "gender…
The "tacking social expectations on top" is the part that is gender!
There's no biological foundation for wearing a sari, hijab, miniskirt, etc. Those are social expectations for women, or part of the role women fill in society.
It's a wholly different concept than biological sex. My penis does not make it impossible to wear eyeliner. But society has a social expectation that I do not. It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic.
You might believe gender is immutable. I'm not going to argue that with you. But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#847Earlier quoted context omitted.
Implicit in what you're saying is that they want to see the best sex-identified athletes in a given sport. If that wasn't true, women's sports would have no audience and we know now (finally!) that this is not the case. I personally think that we'd live in a much better world where you compete against others who broadly speaking are in the same performance category as you. But I do appreciate that the transition to s…
WNBA is being sponsored by men's NBA and they would not have survived without. The merr existence is not an evidence of success. Kids' little leagues also exist, but can't be compared, with actual professional men's sports. Where is women's American football? Women's baseball? Crickets... Women's icehockey is in such a state, that there are only 2 decent countries dominating everybody, and they would get destroyed by…
The world's best female ultradistance runners, rock climbers (particuarly sport and bouldering, but lead also), ultradistance swimmers, are all on a par with their male counterparts and occasionally better.
Since I personally don't have any interest in team sports of any type, I have nothing to say about your observations, though I will continue to wear my "I'm here for the women's race" t-shirt whenever I can.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#848Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no such thing as gender separate from sex. There's the recognition of one's immutable, inherent, sex, and tacking social expectations on top of it, but never that one could choose, or "feel". Always derived, never a choice. And when people allowed cross-dressing, it was always clear it was fake, pretending, never true. But they allowed people to have their personal delusions. The origin of this use of "gender…
The "tacking social expectations on top" is the part that is gender! There's no biological foundation for wearing a sari, hijab, miniskirt, etc. Those are social expectations for women, or part of the role women fill in society. It's a wholly different concept than biological sex. My penis does not make it impossible to wear eyeliner. But society has a social expectation that I do not. It's not a sex characteristic,…
> It's not a sex characteristic, it's a gender characteristic.
They're one and the same.
> But denying the idea that humans have both characteristics derived from biology (sex) and from societal expectations (gender) is simply objectively incorrect.
I don't deny the existence of social expectations (you severely misread what I wrote), but those expectations were deriving from the recognition of the objective truth of one's sex. They were never a matter of one's "internal feelings", they were an extension of one's sex.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#849Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then create those divisions. Please be rational.
For what conceivable reason would you want to recreate the male and female division using a dozen or more proxies for sex instead of just using sex, to wind up with people being placed into the same buckets they would have been if you just went by sex in the first place? This seems ideologically motivated.
The controversy in these comments answers that question nicely. It seems likely that such a change would obviate these edge cases, though they may introduce their own; that seems worthy of consideration.
Really, the question seems better turned around: why use a known bad proxy for physical ability when another one might be better?
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#850Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem to be partly arguing from a position of ignorance. The trans-ness some people experience is extremely general and durable, far more consistent with the explanation that they innately are their gender somehow[^1], than with choice or psychosis. Some people feel pressured by this to, despite all the societal dis-incentives, medically transition. They then are not only their gender in behavior and reported expe…
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> And those people are given the escape hatch of "transness" which is a lie politely allowed by society which gives people the delusion of trying to be what they cannot ever be.
I'm arguing that it ought not to be a polite lie if there are people whose mental makeup is better suited to a gender expression not corresponding to their sex, who then inhabit that different role in everyday life. I frankly don't get your assertion that this cannot happen, as there exist people for whom this is reality right now (in part because they are simply not easily identifyable as trans).
> young people are mutilating themselves and crippling themselves irreversibly by using hormones
My understanding is that the worst side-effect of using hormones is infertility, while surgery comes with more risks.
Anyway, it's about trading off mental anguish against possible complications of medical intervention. Where is the problem here? People do cosmetic surgeries for similar, if not more vain, reasons.
> when doctors try to treat these people correctly, according to their true nature (sex), trans activists have attacked the doctors calling it "misgendering"
Trying to ignore the reality that ones body is different in medical contexts would be indeed harmful. If this kind of activism exists, I do not condone it. I imagine that treating a trans person does not boil down to treating them like a cis person of their sex however, as hormone replacement causes a bunch of differences.