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‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

latimes.com

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Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#841

Post by bigtex88 »

bigyabai wrote: post #353
Liron wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli here, can't directly answer your question since I've lived in the US for 99% of my adult life, but I consider myself pro-Israel and resent the way Israel is currently/always being portrayed. I see the key problem as people removing context: Context for why the current situation could easily be different if Hamas acted/acts differently, and context for why there is no "just stop fighting" option that leaves Is…

> why there is no "just stop fighting" option I don't recall many people ever seriously asking for that, though I admit I'm not up-to-date on Israeli affairs. Don't the overwhelming majority of outsiders want a two-state solution, or failing that a more secular Israeli administration? Through a lens of historical context and not just Oct 7th, it's hard for me to believe that Israelis don't know how to attain regional…

[flagged]

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#842

Post by tguvot »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #840
tguvot wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so they tried to breach border en masse, while having armed people among them and got shot only in knees ? sounds like a good outcome for them. israeli citizens didn't have such a good outcome at oct 7 when great march of return succeeded to breach border. and you seems to be angry that they were harmed and not killed. i am confused here. now, you surely know that between 1945 and 1950 about 12m to 14.6m ethnic germa…

> and got shot only in knees ? sounds like a good outcome for them. please go on > do you support their right to march back and reclaim their land and homes ? considering that they were kicked out by violence in 1948, likud terrorists mass killed entire villages of Palestinians in order to force the rest to flee. Israelis then forced them to live in an apartheid state I certainly do support their right of return. Isr…

I am taking about right of return for 12m displaced Germans.

Do you support it and them marching to reclaim their land and homes?

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#843

Post by tome »

shkkmo wrote: post #832
tome wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few strands getting entangled here. If you look earlier in the thread you'll see I'm asking for justification of the claim of "collective punishment". So far I haven't seen any, and indeed I haven't seen any direct responses to that request at all. An observer following the thread (and maybe this applies to you too) might think "But what I am seeing as so egregious, why does it matter if it's techn…

I don't see any other reason to kill 17,000 kids like that except as collective punishment or genocide. You seem pretty clear that it was neither so I'll leave it up to you to provide another reasonable explanation for why Isreal would want to intentionally kill that many kids.

A few thoughts:

1. "Not seeing any other reason" doesn't seem to be a particularly strong argument. But let's take it at face value. Estimates of German civilian deaths during WW2 range from 1.5m to 3m people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Was that because the allies were "collectively punishing" or "committing genocide" on Germans? I don't think so, and I don't see any reason that civilian deaths in Gaza imply that either.

2. Do you have a source for your death statistics that doesn't ultimately trace back to the "health ministry" of an internationally proscribed terrorist organisation?

3. Not all children who have died in Gaza since 2023 will have been "killed by Israel". Many will have been killed by Hamas for a variety of reasons, including misfired rockets, booby trapped houses, mosques and schools, and getting caught in the crossfire. Since Hamas knows that every child death will be attributed to Israel it's quite happy for that statistic to rise.

4. As far as I can tell, Israel does not kill children (or any civilians) intentionally. Any civilian killed by Israel in Gaza was unintentional, and civilian deaths occur in any war. This happens all the more in Gaza since Hamas deliberately puts civilians in harms way, and booby traps civil infrastructure or uses it to hide in.

5. Hamas is the government of Gaza, and as such it seems like it is their responsibility, not Israel's, to take action to ensure that harm is prevented to their civilians, up to and including freeing the hostages they hold and unconditionally surrendering. That's what the governments of Germany and Japan ultimately did.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#844

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cess11 wrote: post #800
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> israel is a european settler colony created and founded by europeans and settled by europeans Speaking as someone who has heritage in a former European colony, this reductive framing strikes me as ringing closer to the remote oversimplifications Sykes and Picot engaged in than anything those on the ground would endorse. American political science is obsessed with settler colonialism. Herego, every conflict distills…

Some prominent israeli politicians routinely declare that they are the vanguard and front line protection of 'Western civilisation' that are fighting the barbarism of the indigenous savages. Back in 2007 or so polls among israeli teens showed that almost every young israeli jew believed that "arabs" are intellectually inferior, have no culture and are inclined to unreasonable violence. This is quite common in settler…

> Some prominent israeli politicians routinely declare that they are the vanguard and front line protection of 'Western civilisation'

Also true in Russia and Hungary, for the West, and India, China, Turkey and Kentucky for other movements.

> Back in 2007 or so polls among israeli teens showed that almost every young israeli jew believed that "arabs" are intellectually inferior

Tigrayans for central Ethiopians, et cetera.

> Large portions of israeli society support ethnic cleansing among citizens

Literally every ethnonationalistic war.

This analysis is what I’m talking about. Everything you say is true. None of it is unique to settler colonialism.

A lot of American think tank thought on Israel and Palestine is frankly colonial, in terms of people on one continent making moral declarations and conclusions on how maps should be drawn on another, than anything going on in the Middle East, which is closer to bog standard human horribleness.

New Yorkers criticising American weapons shipments to Tel Aviv is legitimate. People who have never been to Israel or Palestine deciding they know where their borders should be drawn is arrogant.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#846

Post by kjkjadksj »

halflife wrote: post #629
kjkjadksj wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As unfortunate as it is, genocides and persecution based on ethnicity or religious orientation are not unique to the Jewish experience. In either case the solution is to target these actions and these policies. The existence of the state of Israel does nothing to further action against these efforts, if what you allege about entire cities in Europe is indeed true. Israel seems to not protect the European Jew at all,…

I presume you misunderstand the purpose of the Jewish state. It’s not to protect Jews living in europe from persecution, it’s to provide a safe haven from persecution. Without site they have no where to go when things get bad. And things to bad many times for Jews in the past 2500 years since their exile. Thinking that the world isn’t tribal is naive, most of it is. Not living as a jew probably doesn’t give you the s…

You get headlines like that about literally every religious group facing some disgusting persecution elsewhere. Should every religious group have its own ethnostate in its legendary borders? Perhaps yes perhaps not. I am in the not camp where I feel religious distinctions are unnecessary labels we put on our species that hold us back. I don’t see why we shouldn’t all be able to live as neighbors and why we need to be kept apart. I know this is not a common sentiment of course, and most of the world considers itself still religious and in favor of segregation at least along subconscious cultural lines.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#847

Post by ncr100 »

Liron wrote: post #346
swat535 wrote: post #205

Can someone living in Israel help me understand what is going on right now? What does the political climate look like in Israel? Do majority of people support what is happening, if so why? if not, how is the government executing this? Further, has this had any impact on the overall relationship between Jewish people worldwide and those residing in Israel? if so, how? I know that the media is all over the place and it…

Israeli here, can't directly answer your question since I've lived in the US for 99% of my adult life, but I consider myself pro-Israel and resent the way Israel is currently/always being portrayed. I see the key problem as people removing context: Context for why the current situation could easily be different if Hamas acted/acts differently, and context for why there is no "just stop fighting" option that leaves Is…

Do you feel apolitical, or that you must be apolitical? As if you have no say in how things turn out?

This grants power while losing agency. And it is more, and more common, e.g. in the United States with its "Deep State" myth of the Q-Anon sect.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#848

Post by ncr100 »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #611
Liron wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli here, can't directly answer your question since I've lived in the US for 99% of my adult life, but I consider myself pro-Israel and resent the way Israel is currently/always being portrayed. I see the key problem as people removing context: Context for why the current situation could easily be different if Hamas acted/acts differently, and context for why there is no "just stop fighting" option that leaves Is…

> there is no "just stop fighting" option that leaves Israel with a high confidence that another Oct 7 won't happen in the next few years How can the same country that prides itself in their intel/spying prowess, and has demonstrated sophisticated capabilities and attacks, claim it will be helpless if they don't absolutely disappear another group of people and take their territory? I seriously doubt the Oct 7 attack…

Agreed - the apathy and simultaneous granting of an individual's power to e.g. the state or the movement + abandonment of agency is the literal killer here.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#849

Post by bigyabai »

robertoandred wrote: post #632
buyucu wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fascist regime in Tel Aviv has been attacking almost every other country in the region. Israel is a country led by religious fanatics.

You're avoiding the question. Why is Israel expected to sacrifice itself when it's attacked?

> Why is Israel expected to sacrifice itself when it's attacked?

Because that's what the inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine did for the Israelis?

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