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Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

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Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#841

Post by johnnyanmac »

Larrikin wrote: post #224

If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? There are a lot of systems in place to verify working status at this point. It eliminates any incentive to hire this cheaper labor willing to work for lower wages. The people coming will be coming for a variety of reasons but it won't be to take the jobs of the uneducated Americans

Trump can't implicate himself whie pretending he cares about American labor.

Also, I'll keep saying it: the cruelty is the point. And sadly the Stanford experiment shows that people will always oblige over the change to torture others if there's no consequences.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#842

Post by thunderfork »

daft_pink wrote: post #791
Cheer2171 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sorry, shattered most of the windows of the central business district, destroyed virtually every grocery store and pharmacy to the point of an almost total loss, carried away most anything of value that could be reasonably carried away on foot from any retailer or small business, vandalized tons of private property/vehicles. Lit tons of police cars on fire. I don’t still live there. Honestly, it convinced me right or…

Every grocery store in a whole city? That's bonkers, which one?

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#843

Post by Aloisius »

amluto wrote: post #707
Larrikin wrote: post #224

If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? There are a lot of systems in place to verify working status at this point. It eliminates any incentive to hire this cheaper labor willing to work for lower wages. The people coming will be coming for a variety of reasons but it won't be to take the jobs of the uneducated Americans

Even a fine is absurd. There are straightforward technological solutions that might even generally decrease costs of employing people. For example, imagine that there was a special kind of money transfer called “payment for labor”: the payer would send the payee $X (via their bank), and the bank would automatically verify the immigration status of the payee, generate the correct tax records, and withhold the correct…

The H-2A temporary agricultural worker visa is uncapped.

It is entirely possible to hire all the migrant agricultural workers one needs using it, but most farms just don't want to pay visa fees, transportation or housing on top of a prevailing wage.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#844

Post by thunderfork »

noworriesnate wrote: post #676
e40 wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are naive to think police can’t turn a peaceful protest into a TV photo op for Fox News. And, it’s also naive to think that all the protesters are on the same side. Instigators are from either no side and the other side. During the George Floyd protests I was walking home and witnessed agitators turn a peaceful protest violent within minutes. There were at most 10 of them out of a crowd of 500. When I got home, t…

It’s a major vulnerability, but I think a valid solution would be for there to be an organization that wears uniforms and has a strict no-violence policy to perform peaceful protests. That way when agitators show up they can be seen as visually different and distinct.

[dead]

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#845

Post by jakeinspace »

thesuitonym wrote: post #588
pvdebbe wrote: post #467

Question from outsider: if a Marine uses lethal force against a civilian in this case, in what court will he be tried?

It depends. If they fire without orders, they will be brought before a court martial, and possibly before a civil court. If they have orders to fire, then there will be no court, they just have to fill out an after-action report detailing what happened.

If it's deemed after the fact to be an illegal order which should have been ignored, I believe they can still face charges of some sort, no?

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#846

Post by belorn »

Larrikin wrote: post #224

If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? There are a lot of systems in place to verify working status at this point. It eliminates any incentive to hire this cheaper labor willing to work for lower wages. The people coming will be coming for a variety of reasons but it won't be to take the jobs of the uneducated Americans

Looking at Sweden and the issue of human trafficking in construction, cleaning and farming, the general problem is that the fine businesses are employing independent contractors from multiple layers of hiring firms, and no one seems very interesting to hold the people who is benefiting from the labor responsible.

It is a well know open secret that not only do practically every large construction site employ illegal immigrants, but there is also a tier system for who do what job. The highest risk and longest hours are given to illegal immigrants. The next tier are those that work off the books, and then last we got those that operate legit as there need to be at least a few of those. This setup seemingly works, until there is an accident or the hiring firm suddenly refuse paying the illegal workers and the miserable details of the human slavery becomes news for a day.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#847

Post by amluto »

Aloisius wrote: post #843
amluto wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a fine is absurd. There are straightforward technological solutions that might even generally decrease costs of employing people. For example, imagine that there was a special kind of money transfer called “payment for labor”: the payer would send the payee $X (via their bank), and the bank would automatically verify the immigration status of the payee, generate the correct tax records, and withhold the correct…

The H-2A temporary agricultural worker visa is uncapped. It is entirely possible to hire all the migrant agricultural workers one needs using it, but most farms just don't want to pay visa fees, transportation or housing on top of a prevailing wage.

Seems like the H-2A program is too restrictive, then.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#848

Post by _DeadFred_ »

aaronbaugher wrote: post #807
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Ronald Reagan wasn't as cruel as the current regime and implemented an Amnesty for millions instead of doing what Trump/ICE are currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

Reagan's amnesty, like the others, was a bait and switch. The DC/corporate establishment said, "Let us amnesty the ones that are here, and we'll get control of the border and stop the flow." After getting their amnesty, the second part never happens. That's led directly to the current mess because it taught people that the most important thing is to get into the country, regardless of legality, so you could be in pla…

No, it was an honest understanding that rounding up and shipping off millions of people can not be done in a way consistent with what conservative (against a federal paper checking sweep of the nation), Christian (love thy fellow man) America was at the time. Sadly we are a much different country now and put our desire to punish 'the scary other' above checks on government power or any pretence of following Christ's teachings.

People wouldn't have continued to come if Conservatives hadn't continued to employ and build business models around undocumented labor. Not addressing the root cause of the problem, employers willing to reward people for coming to the US, is the problem with the Reagan amnesty. Nothing else would have stopped immigration like stopping the reward for immigration would have. But conservatives are addicted to their bottom lines/business special interests and couldn't bring themselves to do what needed doing to stop what they term a 'foreign invasion'. At least the dems do it out of compassion and don't see it as an invasion. The conservatives just allowed the financing of what they see as a 'foreign invasion' for a small share of business special interest dollars.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#849

Post by ty6853 »

jakeinspace wrote: post #845
thesuitonym wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. If they fire without orders, they will be brought before a court martial, and possibly before a civil court. If they have orders to fire, then there will be no court, they just have to fill out an after-action report detailing what happened.

If it's deemed after the fact to be an illegal order which should have been ignored, I believe they can still face charges of some sort, no?

Sure. When the military murdered and/or raped 300+ villagers in My Lai, it was a very serious offense. The commander (lieutenant) was ultimately charged 22 counts of murder, and served a very hard three years of house arrest.

As you can see, the charges are quite serious, which can exceed 3 days stuck in house per instance of illegal homicide.

Re: Marines being mobilized in response to LA protests

#850

Post by atombender »

motorest wrote: post #805
ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump would not have won if Dems had not escalated illegal immigration 2020-24. It was such an unforced error on Biden's part

> Trump would not have won if Dems had not escalated illegal immigration 2020-24. Do you actually have any source to support your claim? I mean, MAGA nuts have been swearing for over a decade that there was a torrent of illegal immigrants arriving each day into the country, and that somehow democrats were to blame, but even after Trump's fascist push with it's forced deportations of everyone including US citizens wit…

The Congressional Budget Office estimated [1] about 10.4m immigrants during 2020-2024, more than 3 times more than under Trump's first term, and of which most was illegal immigration.

The numbers cited by Republican scaremongers like Stephen Miller were probably inflated and derived from CBP border encounters, rather than on how many people were entering the country. But there does seem to have been a significant surge, partly thanks to new immigration programs that made it easier to entering the country while seeking asylum. Deportations seems to have remained high under Biden.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/11/briefing/us-immigration-s...

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