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Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

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Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#841

Post by torginus »

lolinder wrote: post #371
firefoxd wrote: post #184

I wrote about my experience working as a software developer and being black in the industry and I was lucky to have it published on BBC [1]. What immediately followed, every large company reached out to have me work as a consultant for their diversity program. I found it fascinating that they had a team of DEI experts in place already. Like what makes one an expert? In addition to my job, I spent nights developing pr…

Yes. What too few people realized was that the rollout of DEI was driven by what was trending at the time, designed to win political points with the groups that were politically ascendant. These programs were never a victory for the principles or the people, they were marketing. So it should come as no shock whatsoever that now that another political group is politically ascendant the marketing that is valuable has c…

I've always found these loud DEI programs incredibly uncanny - every career website loudly how important diversity and inclusiveness is for them, but in flowery language, as implying they'd actually discriminate against non-diverse hires would be illegal in most places. Which begs the question of the point of these programs, considering of why they were needed this outwards messaging against discrimination, considering it was illegal in the first place.

I've witnessed the DEI transformation from the inside - which amounted to a chief diversity officer being hired, a lot of incredibly sanctimonious online trainings got scheduled for us, and rainbow flags started popping up in the weirdest places.

A few coworkers I had, who checked a lot of the boxes got dragged into interviews and company events (which some found somewhat uncomfortable). Very little changed in practice, and if you didn't care to read the company newsletter (who does that anyway), then you didn't experience much of it.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#842

Post by Nemo_bis »

mike_hearn wrote: post #559
fixnord1 wrote: post #482

DEI programs typically implemented in US companies are considered constitutionally illegal in other parts of the world, such as in France. Giving preferential treatment based on protected characteristics is not allowed in France, for ex. preferring a female hire over male, to meet female quotas.

That's unfortunately not true, it's actually the opposite. The EU is bringing in legally mandatory gender quotas for corporate boards right now, and some European countries have had such rules already at the national level. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/docume... The US does in fact ban discrimination like that, but the rules weren't enforced (or rather they were enforced in one direction only…

Parent post was talking about employment. Members of the board of directors are not employees. Management is also typically not covered by most employee protections in EU countries.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#844

Post by lionkor »

hshshshshsh wrote: post #771
bigtimesink wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never join one of these teams if you're not the modal race. This isn't the case for every team, but there will be important conversations in a language you don't know, and worst case, you were brought on so they have someone to let go when the company demands another 5%.

How do you know the conversation is important if you don't know the language?

you hear your boss's boss's name a few times, maybe your own name

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#845

Post by teitoklien »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #657
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To the anti-DEI crowd: focus on what you can build together The problem with DEI-as-implemented is that it often not only contains overt discrimination against a group (based on a protected class), but also prohibits any criticism of this. When someone is being discriminated against, not subtly or silently but explicitly, intentionally and overtly, and then punished for daring to complain about it, that leads to a…

> that leads to a lot of resentment (both by the people directly affected and by other members of the same class that observe both the discrimination and the silencing). Agreed. This is the fundamental flaw of a lot of social theories borne out of academia when they land in the real world. They thrive in an academic world where hierarchy is bought into by students eagerly and are transplanted into a world where peopl…

That resentment drove people to vote for powers that forced FB and other bigtech to reduce the discriminations that were creating those resentments

I’d say it did make things better.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#846

Post by throwaway48305 »

aldebran wrote: post #681
annzabelle wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the most egregious hiring practice I've actually seen. The white/black/hispanic/asian american managers all hire teams with multiple ethnicities based on the most qualified candidates for the job, while Indian born managers frequently seem to end up with teams that are 80+% Indian. I don't think I've ever seen a team that's 80% white, even in roles that require US Citizenship, but 80% Indian happens frequently…

There’s a simpler non malicious explanation for this. Asians know other Asians in tech and hire based on who they are familiar with rather than their ethnicity. It’s also why women managers tend to have more women in their teams. It’s not malicious. Just a side effect of people’s network. Should that change? Yes. You want a heterogenous team. And this is exactly why DEI is important hahaha

This isn't just a meta phenomenon, it happens at all the big tech companies and it's always asians and indians that form insular groups (indians slightly less so). It is common and not an accident.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#847

Post by yoavm »

ken47 wrote: post #768
yoavm wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider looking at the US, this looks so dangerous. It feels like the whole democratic system is bending to the power of money. Just a few weeks ago, an American friend was making the comparison between the number of billion $ companies in the EU vs the US. I was trying to tell them that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have less of that - I rather have 1,000 million $ companies than a billion $ one. The co…

Democracy being influenced by wealth has always been a thing.

Democracy was always influenced by wealth, now it looks like it can easily be taken over. The richest people are buying their seats in the government, and the very rich (but not the richest) feel like they have to protect their wealth by politically endorsing it.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#848

Post by yoavm »

janderson215 wrote: post #607
yoavm wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider looking at the US, this looks so dangerous. It feels like the whole democratic system is bending to the power of money. Just a few weeks ago, an American friend was making the comparison between the number of billion $ companies in the EU vs the US. I was trying to tell them that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have less of that - I rather have 1,000 million $ companies than a billion $ one. The co…

The US isn’t just home to the largest companies. You only hear about the multinational corporations when you’re in other countries, but all those companies operate in the US initially because the US is very friendly to small businesses relative to the rest of the world. I would be willing to place a substantial wager on the US having more operating businesses per capita than any large country in the EU. Business in t…

Could be, but I don't think it changes my point about some companies (or people) acquiring too much wealth (aka power), in a way that risks democracy.

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#849

Post by torginus »

seadan83 wrote: post #413
lolinder wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. What too few people realized was that the rollout of DEI was driven by what was trending at the time, designed to win political points with the groups that were politically ascendant. These programs were never a victory for the principles or the people, they were marketing. So it should come as no shock whatsoever that now that another political group is politically ascendant the marketing that is valuable has c…

I agree with most of your points. Though with respect lasting change, where is your impression coming from that the gains are in the last 10 to 15 years? Or even that is a widespread belief? According to reporting at the guardian [1], FBs DEI program increased black and brown employees from 8% to 12%. Seems abysmal. My perspective, US society is still fighting for gains that _started_ 160 years ago. Still painstaking…

>FBs DEI program increased black and brown employees from 8% to 12%

That sounds proportional?

I don't have access to these stats but considering the US black population is 13.7%, and certain academically accomplished groups, such as Asians are overrepresented, having a mostly non-immigrant population be 90% as represented as they are in society, is fine I think?

Re: Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs

#850

Post by JofArnold »

gorgoiler wrote: post #124

Diversity in tech hiring never felt like the right end of the funnel. It’s why I went into teaching and I’m proud to say after what seems like a ridiculously short amount of time (“they grow up so fast” etc.) the girls from my classes are now entering the work force as SWE and ML interns. Not many, but more than none. When we focus diversity efforts on high school kids then we get a turnaround at the funnel entrypoin…

I definitely recognize what you're saying and it's fantastic, but hiring managers and execs do indeed need to be active on this too.

The channels to reach out to more diverse candidate are more often than not different to those recruiters use to find your "average white guy in a hoodie". That's decreasingly the case for women (and I use that term very intentionally; I'm not talking generally "non-male" here), but social media and professional networking is quite hostile and/or intimidating to other groups. While the business benefits of putting in this extra effort in are obvious (it's a no brainer to seek out overlooked top talent, let alone the benefits of culture and diverse experiences), those benefits aren't always aligned with the hiring team who are incentivized in most companies to hit numbers. The business goals need to be driven from above by DEI initiatives or - if not - hiring manager allies who'll put their foot down.

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