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Learning to Reason with LLMs

openai.com

841–850 of 1001 posts

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#841

This is incredible. In April I used the standard GPT-4 model via ChatGPT to help me reverse engineer the binary bluetooth protocol used by my kitchen fan to integrate it into Home Assistant. It was helpful in a rubber duck way, but could not determine the pattern used to transmit the remaining runtime of the fan in a certain mode. Initial prompt here [0] I pasted the same prompt into o1-preview and o1-mini and both c…

This is a brilliant hypothesis deconstruction. I am sure others will now be able to test as well and this should confirm their engineering.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#842
Transformers have exactly two strengths. None of them is "attention". Attention could be replaced with any arbitrary division of the network and it would learn just as well.

First true strength is obvious, it's that they are parallelisable. This is a side effect of people fixating on attention. If they came up with any other structure that results in the same level of parallelisability it would be just as good.

Second strong side is more elusive to many people. It's the context window. Because the network is not ran just once but once for every word it doesn't have to solve a problem in one step. It can iterate while writing down intermediate variables and accessing them. The dumb thing so far was that it was required to produce the answer starting with the first token it was allowed to write down. So to actually write down the information it needs on the next iteration it had to disguise it as a part of the answer. So naturally the next step is to allow it to just write down whatever it pleases and iterate freely until it's ready to start giving us the answer.

It's still seriously suboptimal that what it is allowed to write down has to be translated to tokens and back but I see how this might make things easier for humans for training and explainability. But you can rest assured that at some point this "chain of thought" will become just chain of full output states of the network, not necessarily corresponding to any tokens.

So congrats to researchers that they found out that their billion dollar Turing machine benefits from having a tape it can use for more than just printing out the output.

PS

There's another advantage of transformers but I can't tell how important it is. It's the "shortcuts" from earlier layers to way deeper ones bypassing the ones along the way. Obviously network would be more capable if every neuron was connected with every neuron in every preceding layer but we don't have hardware for that so some sprinkled "shortcuts" might be a reasonable compromise that might make network less crippled than MLP.

Given all that I'm not surprised at all with the direction openai took and the gains it achieved.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#843
I've given this a test run on some email threads, asking the model to extract the positions and requirements of each person in a lengthy and convoluted discussion. It absolutely nailed the result, far exceeding what Claude 3.5 Sonnet was capable of -- my previous goto model for such analysis work. I also used it to apply APA style guidelines to various parts of a document and it executed the job flawlessly and with a tighter finesse than Claude. Claude's response was lengthier - correct, but unnecessarily long. gpt-o1-preview combined several logically-related bullets into a single bullet, showing how chain of thought reasoning gives the model more time to comprehend things and product a result that is not just correct, but "really correct".

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#844

Some practical notes from digging around in their documentation: In order to get access to this, you need to be on their tier 5 level, which requires $1,000 total paid and 30+ days since first successful payment. Pricing is $15.00 / 1M input tokens and $60.00 / 1M output tokens. Context window is 128k token, max output is 32,768 tokens. There is also a mini version with double the maximum output tokens (65,536 tokens…

I am an ordinary plus user (since it was released more or less) and have access.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#845
post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the alternative? If AI is going to replace software engineers, there is no fundamental reason they couldn't replace almost all other knowledge workers as well. No matter the field, most of it is just office work managing, transforming and building new information, applying existing knowledge on new problems (that probably are not very unique in grand scheme of things). Except for medical doctors, nurses, and s…

Why can't medical doctors be automated?

Mainly the various physical operations many of them perform on daily basis (due to limitations of robotics), plus liability issues in case things go wrong and somebody dies. And finally, huge demand due to aging population worldwide.

I do believe some parts of their jobs will be automated, but not enough (especially with growing demand) to really hurt career prospects. Even for those parts, it will take a long a while due to the regulated nature of the sector.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#846
post #557
post #533

Here's an unpopular take on this: "We had the chance to make AI decision-making auditable but are locking ourselves out of hundreds of critical applications by not exposing the chain of thought." One of the key blockers in many customer discussions I have is that AI models are not really auditable and that automating complex processes with them (let alone debug things when "reasoning" goes awry) is difficult if not i…

I suspect that actually reading the "chain of thought" would reveal obvious "logic" errors embarrassingly often.

I believe that is the case. Out of curiosity, I had this model try to solve a very simple Sudoku puzzle in ChatGPT, and it failed spectacularly.

It goes on and on making reasoning mistakes, and always ends up claiming that the puzzle is unsolvable and apologizing. I didn’t expect it to solve the puzzle, but the whole reasoning process seems fraught with errors.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#847

>We believe that a hidden chain of thought presents a unique opportunity for monitoring models. Assuming it is faithful and legible, the hidden chain of thought allows us to "read the mind" of the model and understand its thought process. For example, in the future we may wish to monitor the chain of thought for signs of manipulating the user. However, for this to work the model must have freedom to express its thoug…

I always laughed at the idea of a LLM Skynet "secretly" plotting to nuke humanity, while a bunch of humans watch it unfold before their eyes in plaintext. Now that seems less likely. At least OpenAI can see what it's thinking. A next step might be allowing the LLM to include non-text-based vectors in its internal thoughts, and then do all internal reasoning with raw vectors. Then the LLMs will have truly private thou…

> Now that seems less likely. At least OpenAI can see what it's thinking.

When it's fully commercialized no one will be able to read through all chains of thoughts and with possibility of fine-tuning AI can learn to evade whatever tools openai will invent to flag concerning chains of thoughts if they interfere with providing the answer in some finetuning environment.

Also at some point for the sake of efficiency and response quality they might migrate from chain of thought consisting of tokens into chain of thought consisting of full output network states and part of the network would have dedicated inputs for reading them.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#848

>We believe that a hidden chain of thought presents a unique opportunity for monitoring models. Assuming it is faithful and legible, the hidden chain of thought allows us to "read the mind" of the model and understand its thought process. For example, in the future we may wish to monitor the chain of thought for signs of manipulating the user. However, for this to work the model must have freedom to express its thoug…

I always laughed at the idea of a LLM Skynet "secretly" plotting to nuke humanity, while a bunch of humans watch it unfold before their eyes in plaintext. Now that seems less likely. At least OpenAI can see what it's thinking. A next step might be allowing the LLM to include non-text-based vectors in its internal thoughts, and then do all internal reasoning with raw vectors. Then the LLMs will have truly private thou…

>Perhaps we will use a LLM to interpret the secret thoughts of another LLM?

this is a pretty active area of research with sparse autoencoders

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#849

I have a straight forward task that no model has been able to successfully complete. The request is pretty basic. If anyone can get it to work, I'd like to know how and what model you're using. I tried it with gpt4o1 and after ~10 iterations of showing it the failed output, it still failed to come up with a one-line command to properly display results. Here it what I asked: Using a mac osx terminal and standard avail…

Have you tried `ss -ar`? You may have to install `ss`. It is standard on Linux.

Re: Learning to Reason with LLMs

#850

>We believe that a hidden chain of thought presents a unique opportunity for monitoring models. Assuming it is faithful and legible, the hidden chain of thought allows us to "read the mind" of the model and understand its thought process. For example, in the future we may wish to monitor the chain of thought for signs of manipulating the user. However, for this to work the model must have freedom to express its thoug…

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