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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#841

Post by alex7734 »

dontreact wrote: post #496
FireBeyond wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... until Google decides to dial that down to zero for "experience", or Hulu / Netflix makes you disable/whitelist/whatever to access their site.

But as mentioned above, isn't doing so against Google's own self interest? It seems like the project is explicitly stating their goal isn't to allow for websites to do this, and they are implementing it in a manner consistent with that. One thing about your comment above: Hulu can't start implementing attestation until Google turns the knob to 0 because they can't start randomly dropping 5% of Chrome users. So in you…

> But as mentioned above, isn't doing so against Google's own self interest?

I don't see how it is against their interest, it would cement Google into power in a way that is very difficult to undo barring government intervention (which I doubt is going to happen).

> It seems like the project is explicitly stating their goal isn't to allow for websites to do this, and they are implementing it in a manner consistent with that.

If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will of course frantically try to clamber out. But if you place it gently in a pot of tepid water and turn the heat on low, it will float there quite placidly. As the water gradually heats up, the frog will sink into a tranquil stupor, exactly like one of us in a hot bath, and before long, with a smile on its face, it will unresistingly allow itself to be boiled to death.

> If I understand correctly Hulu cannot act unilaterally with the currently planned implementation of this.

Hulu will keep their attestation implementation ready to turn on at a moment's notice because it's patently obvious that the hold-back stuff will be gone when it's ready to go, and it's obvious because the currently described implementation (with the hold-back) does not really serve any real purpose.

The hold-back is only on the spec to keep people from revolting while the thing is built and tested.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#842

Post by Pannoniae »

pptr wrote: post #794
Pannoniae wrote: post #225

This proposal is just so throughly user-hostile that it's impossible to criticise it based on technical grounds. It's not a bad proposal, it's a dangerous, evil and malicious one, so criticising it in details is futile. The whole thing in itself is evil, and it needs to be thrown out. Quietly protesting won't work this time, the goal is to kick up a huge fuss which gets the attention of governments, regulatory bodies…

How is this feature hostile to Googles users? There is genuine benefit from websites allowing you to do more things via their website (vs their app). Also: fewer/no Captchas, fewer bots on social media The platforms most people use will see benefits. Apple users apparently already do. I understand the argument that the open source experience will get worse. But frankly, google.com will still work for you. It will be…

"Googler here." (you, previously) - I don't particularly appreciate astroturfing, and others don't either.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#843

Post by ukuina »

nonane wrote: post #120
smallstepforman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Browser application needs to pass a binary image check, and if the browser hash doesn't match Google database, you cannot proceed to the website (since your browser may be corrupted). A major big deal for non main-stream browser, and for non Google browser developers, extension developers (eg. AdBlock), etc. In summary, some websites (like banks, Netflix, etc) will no longer be available for non mainstream browse…

Can you please explain why a third party browser can’t lie about its hash, just like it can lie about it’s user agent?

Because the website is not just asking your browser to attest, the attestation process requires the OS to send verification.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#844

Post by Klonoar »

pjmlp wrote: post #669
toyg wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple don't have enough web properties to force this sort of change. Google can turn around tomorrow and say that no browser without WEI can access GMail, GMaps, GSheets, Photos etc; people will have to comply, effectively killing any browser that does not support the feature. This is the problem with the Chromium monoculture. "We", as generic IT people and developers on HN, definitely have a responsibility for not d…

And everyone that ships an Electron app as well.

Sigh, no.

We would’ve gotten Electron any other way if it wasn’t Chromium, it’s the only endgame for UI given how native layers shat the bed.

Mozilla also no longer even supports embedding. ;P

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#846

Post by prmoustache »

PedroBatista wrote: post #792
prmoustache wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has been mismanaged for at least a decade Do you think Google is better managed?

One has a browser that has +60% market share, the other went from ~55% to 3%. One company dominates "the Web" and pulls these shenanigans all every other year, the other one is totally dependent of the former to pay their bills. So yeah, Google has been better managed than Mozilla. That doesn't invalidate Google's execs are a bunch of lizards on the now common SV ego trip and screw up all the time, but they can and e…

Dwindling market share of firefox is pretty much not related to how the mozilla foundation is managed. They had 55% of the market when the only competition was:

- ie6 which was a security nightmare for everybody

- browsers like Opera developed by very small companies against which competition was more based on merit

The only way for Mozilla have been able to maintain its market share against chrome would have to manage to reach both these requirements:

- build the #1 smartphone OS in the market in term of market share to have it preinstalled everywhere

- build the #1 search engine in term of market share to advertise using it everytime the user search for something.

Both feats requiring:

- financial means that were out of reach from the Mozilla foundation at any moment in time regardless of its management.

- giving up on mozilla ethics and values to be on same level as the definitely evil competitor.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#847

Post by notpushkin »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #466
notpushkin wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about Jitsi? https://meet.jit.si/ It's free and open source, works everywhere, has stuff like background replacement, and doesn't require signup at all.

Jitsi is super easy to use, and I still can't get older people to use it. They just hear "Zoom" on CNN so they think, "I'm supposed to use Zoom. Other things are weird." So much behavior is just driven by anxiety and habituation.

I've watched Louis Rossmann's video on Jitsi a couple weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzt0tzsaWDE

He provides a nice piece of anecdata there: for one-on-one meetings, you can just send people a link and usually they just join. Even if they've sent a link to Zoom or Meet or whatever, you still can say “hey, join this instead” and it will work. I haven't tried this yet, but sounds plausible to me.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#848

Post by pjmlp »

Klonoar wrote: post #844
pjmlp wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And everyone that ships an Electron app as well.

Sigh, no. We would’ve gotten Electron any other way if it wasn’t Chromium, it’s the only endgame for UI given how native layers shat the bed. Mozilla also no longer even supports embedding. ;P

Speaking as someone that has been doing native and Web for 30 years, it is the only game for developers that couldn't care, and in the process help Chrome to widen its market share and influence.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#849

Post by prmoustache »

MildRant wrote: post #678
prmoustache wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but appart from festivals (which were not relying on ticket master) I haven't seen tickets sold by only one company. Usually there are different ones and also some plain old in person in ticket office of department stores.

There are venues that are Ticketmaster specific because Ticketmaster's parent company owns the venue and some acts just use Ticketmaster because they are the most popular ticketing service. If I want to go to UFC 292 for example, I have to get my tickets through Ticketmaster. UFC isn't using some service that shows up on indiehacker

A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of all tickets/venues available. So hard to boycott.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#850

Post by nvm0n1 »

jorams wrote: post #642
nvm0n1 wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> 3. Web EME. "End of the web as an open platform", years later, web is just the same as it always was. And yet every single paid streaming service refuses to serve high quality video to users on platforms like Linux. This is entirely normalized, and they still get to call themselves "web" sites because this mechanism is now officially part of "the web".

They weren't doing that before EME either, were they?
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