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My students cheated... a lot

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Re: My students cheated... a lot

#841
First of all, I'mm sorry you had to endure something so emotionally straining.

Please consider the the students perspective. I, myself, went through academia with a one single goal - to obtain a piece of paper for future employment reasons, which I endured, with gritted teeth

I have no idea how it works on your country of residence, but I had a curriculum that consisted of about 20% of classes, of absolute irrelevancy to my primary field of study. I have no regrets cheating on those classes, just to get it over with.

I urge you to entertain the idea, that some students, unfortunately, were there not by choice, but merely "passing through".

Consider this a problem with the educational system itself, not students having a personal grudge with your subject or self.

Finally, no offense intended, but I urge you to reconsider your strong loyality to the (sprry, probably misquoting) "academic code of conduct" and filling out reports about your misbehaving students. Replacing idealism in favour of pragmatism might suit everyone's needs better :)

P.S. Sounds like yur students would gratly benefit form some education in the field of OPSEC :)

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> HOW do you measure knowledge? The teachers I've known don't really care about measuring knowledge. They're looking for a reasonable way to motivate engagement with the class, that's not too disruptive of the overall flow of the course. One professor told me, "A student who has made an effort to work through the homework problems a couple times should be able to easily get a B on the exam. Testing also acknowledge…

I can tell you that almost every teacher who is not burnt out, does care about how we measure knowledge, mainly because they have to. The big difficulty is that there are two roles for teachers, on one hand you are a mentor and supposed to impart knowledge onto your students (the teaching part). On the other hand you are a gatekeeper, you are supposed to check that the thresholds for some qualification are met. Now i…

What do they do with the information? The threshold in most courses is to be able to pass the next course. The students who won't do that, tend to drop out, or switch to an easier major, of which there are many.

Teachers do tend to change their content and methods if a large number of students are failing exams, but I think it's based more on a hunch, than on hoping that test scores will yield analytical quality data. This is the sense I get from talking to a lot of teachers. My only teaching experience was one semester at a big ten university, a long time ago.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#843
Students are cheating on tests, yet technical interview tests are still the standard. How does memorizing a question so you can regurgitate it benefit anyone? I consider even that to be cheating.

You're not thinking through the problem like the interviewer implies and asked for. You're replaying inputs, like a bot programmed to beat a level in Mario.

If they're looking to hire a good Mario player, you're misrepresenting yourself with that technique. The pixel perfect glitch you nail on every screen has nothing to do with your actual ability when you get the role.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#844
post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stupid assignments encourage students to cheat. Make them interesting and this problem will go away. and yet > Usually TAs would get a cheating report for reused bits of code and things that would solve an exercise with techniques far away from students knowledge or forbidden functions. TAs would ask you questions about your code and trigger cheating review if you could not explain why you wrote it this way. It was…

> The problem does not go away with a better course but is - based on your anecdote and not from the presumably better view of the TAs - lessened somewhat. I was a TA in France, and did a bit of TA-ing unofficially in the US. So, my view is based on both experience, TA and Student. While there was some cheating happening on both sides, it was practically non-existent in France after a few weeks of school. The abiliti…

> Finally, most important projects were done in groups of 2 to 5-6

Much less reason to cheat in group work too. It's much easier to just put in minimal effort and let someone else in the group do the work. That's just another form of cheating.

In Germany we say "Team" in teamwork is an acronym for "Toll Ein Anderer Machts" (great someone else does the work) and especially in university there is a lot of truth to it. Especially so when there is a big difference in motivation in regards to the final grade.

Not to say there aren't a lot of upsides to group work. But stopping people that don't wanna engage with the subject isn't one of them.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#845

The most disturbing thing of all is that they just let the threats of reprisals slide like that. They can do what they want about the cheaters, but the students making the threats should have faced immediate expulsion. It's the worst kind of corruption, because all other forms of corruption hinges on everyone staying silent and playing along. Anyone who espouses the "snitches get stitches" attitude needs to be social…

From the article, those threats were Sent to the school’s judicial review: > If it has a crying face emoji does it mean the threats weren’t serious? I don’t know, wasn’t going to take any chances. > I won’t repeat the email exchange with the student who had to be contacted by judicial affairs.

Later, it clarifies that the student who made two clear threats to the supposed “snitch” got “a second chance.”

This was the worst decision in a series of somewhat-too-lenient decisions. I would not want to teach at, study at, or send my kids to school at an institution that lacks a zero-tolerance policy for such threats.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#846

First of all, I'mm sorry you had to endure something so emotionally straining. Please consider the the students perspective. I, myself, went through academia with a one single goal - to obtain a piece of paper for future employment reasons, which I endured, with gritted teeth I have no idea how it works on your country of residence, but I had a curriculum that consisted of about 20% of classes, of absolute irrelevanc…

> Please consider the the students perspective. I, myself, went through academia with a one single goal - to obtain a piece of paper for future employment reasons, which I endured, with gritted teeth > > I have no idea how it works on your country of residence, but I had a curriculum that consisted of about 20% of classes, of absolute irrelevancy to my primary field of study. I have no regrets cheating on those classes, just to get it over with.

The point of academia isn't to prepare you for your future profession. It's not supposed to teach you the on-the-job skills. It's about learning to learn, about getting equipped with a toolset to tackle novel problems and give a broad theoretical basis for that in your field of study. Also to demonstrate you can learn and work through a subject that's not (or you think is not) directly relevant for you.

That and more are the qualities future employers attribute to that piece of paper and letting cheating slide is certainly not pragmatic.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#847

So I think the teacher missed the main point of his own essay: "The argument was that chat groups have become indispensable tools for students taking courses online during the pandemic. The essay detailed all of the useful info passed around in chats. I totally agreed with this point....Their strategy was to leave the chat before every quiz and midterm so that they couldn’t be there for the cheating. Then they rejoin…

As much as the OP claims they take cheating seriously and as an opportunity to engage with students and have them learn amongst other noble undertakings.

I think they just really enjoy catching people cheat and see how far it goes. Sort of masochistic tbh

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the problem is that complicated - you just can't measure knowledge with a process (or a machine). Only a human can approximate another human's level of understanding. Trying to create a knowledge factory seems to me a pipe dream. All cheating comes from trying to force learning into a rigid mechanical box. Solution? My opinion - remove colleges, bring back guilds. Of course, this is an oversimplificatio…

It sounds more like we need students to be mentors so that the number of teachers scales with the number of students.

Interesting proposal.

Let's say this was formalized as follows:

Each student would be encouraged to serve as mentor for up to 3 younger students, starting on year 3 of their studies, and each semester thereafter, and receive some small stipend for each mentee.

At the start of each semester, prospective mentors would be listed and students would be allowed to seek them out. Both parties would be allowed to know the grades of each other, and the mentees would be allowed to reach out to former mentees of the same mentor. Mentors would also be allowed to do some kind of self-promotion where they could "sell" their abilities as mentors.

After each exam, the mentoring would count as having taken a course for the mentor, with the grade equal to the average grade of their students, and it would provide a numbe of "mentoring credits" equal to the number of students passing. This might seem unfair, but the idea is that this would encourage competition among mentors to "catch" the best students, encouraging the mentor to put effort in.

For the next semester/course, new mentor student connections could be set up, or the same as the semester before could be kept, if both sides agreed.

When a student receives their final diploma, all the mentoring results would be listed, both courses, average grade of students, and number of students, as well as total students*courses mentored and the average grade for those.

I can imagine a lot of employers would be highly interested in this information, as it could be extremely predictive for some kinds of positions (in particular positions of leadership or teaching). Students who had repeatedly mentored other students who achieved great results would be likely to, in the future, be able to recruit and keep high quality employees and help maximize the output of a team. In both cases, it might be it would be the very students they had been mentoring that would be potential hires.

Or, if employed by a university, would be likely to attract high quality post-graduate students as well be effective supervisors for them.

Now shy, intravert or people with bad social skills might find this unfair. But I think there would still be room for people who focused exclusively on learning the subjects themselves, and these would have more time available for that. These might also care less about those jobs where mentoring success would be seen as crucial.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#849

So I think the teacher missed the main point of his own essay: "The argument was that chat groups have become indispensable tools for students taking courses online during the pandemic. The essay detailed all of the useful info passed around in chats. I totally agreed with this point....Their strategy was to leave the chat before every quiz and midterm so that they couldn’t be there for the cheating. Then they rejoin…

I’d like to add, that supposed “superstar” student who read the chat to learn the other class info and left to not read the cheating… “sent no texts”.

As someone who recently graduated, this student is a freeloader. Comparable to companies who heavily use OSS but never contribute. I expect them to be a terrible coworker.

Re: My students cheated... a lot

#850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people don't know how to do their own work, full stop. I've encountered the type before. They literally wouldn't know what to do.

What's interesting is those people are not necessarily maladapted to their future adult work lives. In some lines of work finding the correct stuff to use for a task is way more important than ability to create it yourself from scratch. Finding the plug that fits the given socket vs building the plug from scratch.

The original cheating, maybe. Cheating, doubling down by lying, and then cheating again on the get-out-of-cheating-free assignment seems like it’s only adapted to a future life of white-collar crime.
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