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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#841

Post by robwwilliams »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

LOL: that was said with straight-faced irony.

“…based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live.”

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#842

Post by novok »

sn41 wrote: post #790
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

Your take is very strange, and does not correspond to the Indian immigrant experience from what I have seen. I spent 10 years in the US, and the really weird part is how stridently Indian parents would push their kids to train in Indian culture - particularly classical dance like Bharatanatyam and Carnatic classical. Of course, since Westerners have hardly even heard about these cultural forms, these do not even exis…

It's because they don't want their children to lose their indian culture, despite raising them in a foreign country. When your in india, you don't have to worry about that.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#843

Post by novok »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

You could've googled that pretty easily and found out in less time it took you to write that comment.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#844

Post by s1artibartfast »

chii wrote: post #821
s1artibartfast wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized test largely reflect reality, and reality has racial inequities. They don't measure human potential at Birth and don't try to.

the inequalities could be caused by racial discrimination (bring born in a black household, you're more likely to have issues than a white household, statistically). Inequalities could also be caused by other factors, unrelated to racism. The tests measure certain cognitive capabilities. Genes have an effect, nutrient intake has an effect, nurture has an effect. Trying to fix racism via test scores (or disregarding i…

I agree.

To be blunt. You can look at life expectancy for black and white americicans. Whites live longer. Measuring the difference is not systemic racism. We should not avoid measurements for this reasons.

Some minorities perform worse on SAT. This is a fact. SAT predicts performance in college, this is also a fact.

The question becomes, how do we select college students. Those most likely to succeed, or other values.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#845

Post by passivate »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #638
muh_gradle wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time seeing US standardized testing as "better." All of my Korean peers who have studied for the CSAT or Suneung laugh at how easy the SAT/ACT math section is in comparison. K-12 education in the US is years behind at this point from many Asian countries. The fact that we are debating whether standardized testing for colleges and prestigious high schools (Lowell in SF, Stuyvesant in NYC, etc) should be…

I always wonder why these asian countries aren't doing laps around USA or other western countries if they were learning calculus in pre school.

For one, they don't all have 11 aircraft carriers and 62 destroyers backing their money as the reserve currency in the world. For another, China certainly is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#846

Post by seansmccullough »

lightup wrote: post #566
gourabmi wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. How many universities did he apply to ? How many accepts/ rejects from that pool?

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

Iowa State is a good school, I went there and ended up at Amazon and then Microsoft. The engineering programs are pretty decent and have good student outcomes, I don’t see how going to Iowa State would be disastrous for your son’s future.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#847

Post by welshwelsh »

thedstrat wrote: post #804
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

There are intelligent people though that don't do well on standardized tests (or at least don't get top tier results). I agree that standardized testing is a good metric to get a general idea of aptitude, but I think it hugely fails in appreciating people who are able to solve 'non-standardized' problems. And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions

The SAT measures the two skills colleges care most about: reading and math.

Reading is the most important part. Your score on this section is determined by how much time you spend reading. A student who reads for an hour a day will get a top score, while a student who doesn't read at home will get a low score. Colleges require students to be capable of reading for long periods of time, and the SAT is a great way of filtering out people who are not active readers.

A student with a low reading score might be otherwise intelligent, but intelligence does not make a scholar. A college education involves consuming copious amounts of information; it is no place for someone who struggles with reading comprehension.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#848

Post by abecedarius »

thedstrat wrote: post #804
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

There are intelligent people though that don't do well on standardized tests (or at least don't get top tier results). I agree that standardized testing is a good metric to get a general idea of aptitude, but I think it hugely fails in appreciating people who are able to solve 'non-standardized' problems. And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions

afaik this isn't about judging only by standardized test scores, though.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#849

Post by ghaff »

aj7 wrote: post #827
fmajid wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. More precisely it was first invented by Yale to limit the number of Jewish students admitted, and was later repurposed to limit the number of Asian students admitted.

Exactly. If you’re really intellectually bright and committed, all those extracurricular activities, populated by average students, are a total waste of time. Regardless of anything they say, MIT and Cal Tech have prospered precisely by ignoring that crap, and giving preference to people who can do the work.

At least back when I knew people in the admissions office, MIT definitely did not ignore that “crap” though I’d be willing to stipulate it may have weighted it less heavily than a school like Harvard.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#850

Post by crummy »

tomatowurst wrote: post #817
DownUnde wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the effects of actively racist institutions and policies is not even a generation away. I Don't think leveling the field that should be level in the first place isn't racism. what is real racism to you honest question.

I'm trying to understand how Scantron can be racist. It does not know the identity, race, demographic or the economic class of the test taker. It literally just scans the test takers responses and scores it based on a preset solution. You are not given extra time because of your demographic nor are certain demographics punished or given extra points, everybody has access to the same learning resources, and one can ta…

I don't know if this is the case, but presumably the questions themselves could advantage or disadvantage people from a particular background.
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