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America has a drinking problem

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841–850 of 938 posts

Re: America has a drinking problem

#841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, everyone has the same chance already, at least to a close approximation. It's just not logically valid to look at unequal outcomes and conclude that not everyone had the same chance, but that's what half this thread is doing. Whatever the US is doing, it works for producing prosperity and innovation. Whatever the EU is doing doesn't work to produce that. Sure, people there are comfortable, but should comf…

> In America, everyone has the same chance already, at least to a close approximation. Really? When your mother has to hold down two jobs to pay the rent and put food on the table? Or when your mother doesn't need to work because she inherited millions from her parents? Which mother will have a child who goes on to a good university? The income share of the poorest ten percent of the population is 1.8% in the US, in…

Some people do badly in life. That's not an indictment of the system!

Re: America has a drinking problem

#842
post #838
post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While your response is entirely predictable, it’s obvious why such a reaction misses the point because the scope is much wider than one issue. Yes, it was said during a time when slavery was the norm. But the “experiment” also included allowing systems that challenged that notion rather than maintaining the status quo. That’s the point.

I don't think this really addresses the core issue, being that experimentation is used as an excuse to not apply the results of the experiments after they've been performed. I don't think the idea is that experimentation is de facto bad. It's the use of experimentation as a tool to avoid implementation following experimentation that's being decried.

I think you are correct, but also think that’s why Jefferson deliberately rooted the virtue of experimentation in our ability to use reason to interpret the results.

If someone is acting in bad faith, the fault is not in the experimental process but rather their faculty in interpreting the results. We wouldn’t throw out experimentation in science just because a researcher was biased in their result. The OP seems to be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#843

I'm going to generalize, but the US is more diverse (rank #90 vs #151 for Germany, #169 for France, #111 for Croatia [0]) and we also have a very painful past and present that makes us acutely aware of our inability to socialize. America also has a cultural obsession with self-reliance/liberty/frontier-as-a-virtue which makes "socializing" a bit of a taboo concept, in a weird way. It's a crutch to "need" to be around…

>we also have a very painful past and present that makes us acutely aware of our inability to socialize. What are you talking about?

[deleted]

Re: America has a drinking problem

#844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of the things you've listed sounds like diversity, it sounds like inequality. Why is half the country without proper education while the other ones are in the best research institutions in the world? And what does the people are those institutions spend their time on, if it's not helping the other half reaching the same position as themselves? The social experiment seems to be about how extreme you can really…

> Why is half the country without proper education Some of it is inequality, but some of it is willful diversity. There is a strong undercurrent that education is bad - a counterculture of ignorance. It is something that bewilders me, and that has only become clear to me in the past 5 years or so. It isn't that some people lack access to education that they want, but rather do not want access to that education becaus…

I think you have the symptoms right but I disagree with your premise:

> These people want to know and yet, for some reason, don't find the motivation to learn using the vast ocean of resources we have now. With the subculture of people in the US that think learning is offensive, an insult to their intellect, an assault on their freedom and independence, you have a problem of a whole other category.

While this may come off as a bit pedantic I think it's important to recognize that no one actually thinks "learning things" is offensive or insulting. While it's convenient to package the behaviors of people you don't understand into a single box I think it spawns an unproductive and even unhealthy attitude towards others.

Rather than packing it all into one root issue, I think it's better to try and match the set of symptoms with a set of (possible) causes. Here is my own personal take on the situation:

|== American Culture Has Failed To Adapt To The Internet's Style Of Trust & Reputation

1. Before television a person's world was often restricted to those in their local community, this meant that reputation was everything and as a consequence, people tended to be naturally very trusting, naive even (since betraying someones trust would hurt your local reputation). If your town's doctor or priest told you something, you would believe them.

2. After television become a household staple in the 50s, this perspective changed a bit. Sure you could always /read/ about people outside of town, or even listen to them on the radio, but with TV they were practically right there in front of you. As a consequence this culture of trusting people within the community naturally extended towards those on TV as well. In fact people started to trust people on TV even more than the people within their local community! If the TV said it it must be true! (it often wasn't but then again, how would they know?)

3. Then the internet happened. It was slow, it took a lot of time to saturate into the lives of most people, but I'd say around 2010, the vast majority of people considered it more reliable than TV. It had now taken the throne of truth from TV and as a consequence: three generations of people who were conditioned to believe EVERYTHING they heard on TV without questioning things suddenly got exposed to a platform that was completely unmoderated and without consensus.

4. It used to be that people would just pick favored news channel and believe everything it told them. They thought that being a "skeptic" was doubting the handful of news channels that other people watched, but obviously /their/ news channel got everything right. These beliefs carried over to the internet, especially in the older generations (but not exclusively by any means). To them the only thing that changed is instead of there being 100 or 1000 channels, there are now infinite. But unfortunately they often fail to realize that their culture of trust is incompatible with a platform where that "local" reputation is near meaningless.

|== The Incompetence Of Mainstream Authorities, After Generations Of Public Trust, Has Lost It's Footing

* It's becoming increasingly obvious how incompetent and outright deceitful some of the most trusted news organizations have become without shame. They have of course almost always been this way but atleast local newspapers at a certain degree of accountability. By over optimizing for the web's engagement driven monetization strategies, news orgs drunk on the trust television provided them, have stopped doing their due diligence and pretty much everyone can see this now thanks to (ironically) the web.

* Coastal Elites over-estimating their intelligence and under-estimating the rest keep getting caught trying to play mind games with the public. This applies to many domains but the best example, while repeated ad nauseam at this point, would be health officials saying masks weren't effective against the virus at first so they could avoid a shortage. This created a very large gaping wound in public trust that will take a very long time to heal. While maybe in the days of television this would have been swept under the rug before long, that's not how things work anymore.

* Recent years have simply had too many cases where the mainstream opinion, paraded as absolute, turned out to be naked from the start. Trump was elected (2016), Brexit happened, and the Corona Virus is not just the flu (the was a conspiracy theory back in January 2020). Honestly even a bunch of little things on the side like CNBC saying the hedgefunds closed their position on those GME shorts have also added to this.

|= People Don't Actually Know How To Do Research

* Regardless of generation or exposure to television, people at large straight up do not even know how to do the most basic of research. A shocking amount of people think typing something into google and looking at the first result is something to be proud of. It's not as you suggest where they are proud not to go any deeper, its that the dunning kruger effect has caused many of the populace to believe that there isn't anything deeper to be looked at.

* People fail to understand the value primary sources. Even most programmers which one might assume trend a bit higher on the bell curve, fail to even look at the original documentation or specification for things that they are trying to learn about. When trying to learn about HTTP for example, rather than just looking at Wikipedia to find the RFC numbers and reading the RFCs themselves. They will instead opt to only look at the summary Wikipedia provides, or worse, rely on a bunch of SEO "optimized" tutorial sites that often get things wrong.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#845

I'm going to generalize, but the US is more diverse (rank #90 vs #151 for Germany, #169 for France, #111 for Croatia [0]) and we also have a very painful past and present that makes us acutely aware of our inability to socialize. America also has a cultural obsession with self-reliance/liberty/frontier-as-a-virtue which makes "socializing" a bit of a taboo concept, in a weird way. It's a crutch to "need" to be around…

>we also have a very painful past and present that makes us acutely aware of our inability to socialize. What are you talking about?

Americans, socializing loudly together or with locals anywhere in the world while simultaneously being unable to socialize.

American exceptionalism!

Re: America has a drinking problem

#846

Title is definitely true (america has a drinking problem), in a way. Excessive drinking is normalized, though not as common as problem drinkers think. Since college I always drank too much, but my real issue was that I assumed everybody drank as much as I did (maybe 20-30 drinks per week). Since I wasn't drinking as soon as I woke up or getting shakes without drinking, I thought I was fine. It wasn't until I realized…

I am in your same boat, I have always liked drinking very much, but I never dipped into any sort of serious "drinking problem" territory. For me the best way to reduce alcohol -- and stay healthy in general -- is to count calories. It's impossible to overdrink if you only have 200 calories at the end of your day and can only drink 1 beer. Nothing else has helped me cut back like that.

Yeah, that's a great way, even if you just do it to wake up to how many calories are in alcoholic drinks. I've switched to seltzer/carbonated drinks for both weekdays and weekend nights, and it's been great. Just as much fun for me to chug on friday or sip on after work without any health concerns (and a fraction of the cost)

Re: America has a drinking problem

#847
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not like I suddenly break down or something. There are a few factors in my sport. BJJ is mostly cardio so I sweat a lot. I train at or close to my limits most of the time. Recovery isn’t as easy at 41. Alcohol depletes just enough from my body and impedes recovery just enough that the next day, I won’t be 100%, and I’ll feel it. Even one drink in the evening is massively disruptive to sleep processes like REM sl…

You might be overtraining. When I trained in BJJ and also tried to weight train as well as cardio I felt the difference between drinking or not. But that largely went away when I stopped trying to do so much. Other health markers improved as well (sleep, RHR, etc.) Just a thought if you're noticing a single drink that much.

I have been doing it for a number of years now. My limit is what I can do while maintaining great deep sleep, etc. I can occasionally push harder, but then sleep and overtraining creeps in. So, I am staying somewhere comfortably under that overtraining threshold. Even minimal alcohol consumption starts really messing things up :)

Re: America has a drinking problem

#848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In America, everyone has the same chance already, at least to a close approximation. Really? When your mother has to hold down two jobs to pay the rent and put food on the table? Or when your mother doesn't need to work because she inherited millions from her parents? Which mother will have a child who goes on to a good university? The income share of the poorest ten percent of the population is 1.8% in the US, in…

Some people do badly in life. That's not an indictment of the system!

They specifically gave an example of someone being born in a family where the parent has to work 2 jobs to make ends meet. How is that "doing badly in life"??? I swear we're like 2 comments away from someone seriously saying "just get richer parents, duh".

And yes, not making sure that everyone has equal opportunities(not equal outcomes!!!!) is a failing of the system.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#849
post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Whatever the US is doing, it works for producing prosperity and innovation. For some, at the expense of others.

That is simply not true. One person's success does not take away opportunity from others.

No one is attacking personal success here - it's important and should be celebrated. But the opportunities in the US are absolutely not equal, far from it.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#850
post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

often results in people getting assaulted on the street. These laws let the police do something about this Aren't there laws against assaulting people on the street that the police could use, then?

Sure there are, but those require someone to be assaulted to enforce them. If they can short-circuit the process during the "drinking in public" preamble to the assault then one might say violence was prevented instead of punished. The perpetrator ends up with a lighter sentence (DIP not nearly as frowned upon as violent crimes) and the would-be-victims aren't even involved.

There are many laws like this that attempt to prevent an uncommon Bad Thing™ from happening at the expense of individual freedom. Some are created as a response to some event. Some are the result of some group pushing their moral values in law. I think we have seen that in most cases these types of laws that conflate correlation and causation are harmful and often abused to the detriment of specific groups.
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