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Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

841–850 of 965 posts

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

APIs and most code is copyrightable, they are original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium, all that is required by he Copyright Act of 1976. It doesn't look like either party in this case claimed the code was not eligible for copyright either If they shouldn't be copyrightable because the world would be better off, interoperability between business is harmed, it is up to congress to change the law. Histor…

How often does the API itself exceed the level of creativity of uncopyrightable plain lists of facts? It's not clear to me that it should be considered copyrightable on its own, especially with the fact that copyright explicitly do not cover functional elements. The declarations only instructs you on how to interact with the actual code, and AFAICT rarely add any creative height on top of what's in the main source co…

The threshold of originality is extremely low for a work to be considered a work of authorship. From the linked decision, " a work is “original” if it is “independently created by the author” and “possesses at least some minimal degree of creativity.” Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U. S. 340, 345 (1991). The lines of declaring code in the Java platform readily satisfy this “extremely low” threshold. "

Paper forms are often protected by copyright, as long as they have creative non functional elements. And they are licensed much like stock photos in some industries.

There would be some APIs or code that only contain functional elements and aren't eligible for copyright protection, but in most cases there is a substantial amount that is not only functional.

Copyright protects works fixed in a physical media, not the underlying idea. Many people can create similar works based on the same underlying ideas. Like with a map projection a specific implementation can be protected by copyright. But the idea of a map projection where a constant bearing in the real world corresponds to a straight line on a map cannot be protected by copyright, someone else could create their own version that does the same thing without infringement.

Copyright only protects against copying, not against independent creation of the same work. With something like a calendar, or in some cases an API that only has a few creative elements, multiple people could make the same choices and create the exact same thing without there being any infringement.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#842
post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I fail to see why an ISA is fundamentally different than a standard library. As GP said, the difference is whether it's patented. If Sun had patented parts of the API (or algorithms necessary to implement it), then Oracle would have another weapon against Google even after Google was granted a fair-use defense.

Sure I'm not disagreeing with the legal history, but on what merits is one patentable, and the other either fair use to reimplement or not even copywritable!! I could understand Intel having a CPU patent for specific CPUs, but an specific ISA?! A really interesting test case would be to implement an isomorphic encoding to x86 with same instruction widths and what-not such that it's trivial to convert binaries from on…

We shouldn't necessarily assume that the x86 patent war chests are legally sound. Rather, Intel and AMD have a mutually assured destruction cross-licensing arrangement and they need each other to stay viable to fend off antitrust regulators. But they would prefer not risking an unfavorable precedent by actually wielding their patents in court, so their deterrent operates more on the promise of protracted and expensive litigation, rather than on the promise that Intel would actually win against an upstart CPU vendor.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one thing to steal algorithms but for interoperability to remain possible it is necessary for API to remain "fair use". I can't agree with you that this is a bad thing for them to copy Java SE interfaces.

I understand we can’t have copyrights on APIs, but something about it just doesn't feel "fair" to me, though. Fair use makes sense to me when you're talking about the table of contents of a book. If I take the table of contents of a famous novel and write my own chapters, it makes sense to me that the owners of that book shouldn't be able to sue me. No one is going to read my book instead of Faulkner's. There's no eq…

> the interface is what matters, and the implementation is secondary.

But that's kind-of the point IMO - if we take a free-market approach to this, copying (or sort of "standardizing" onto) an API allows for more innovation, since it's not a prohibitive up-front cost to switching the implementation. We don't copyright (or I guess patent, and I know they're different) the user interface of a fridge. Any fridge can have 2 doors and a slide-out freezer, but it's the actual implementation that would matter to a user - how energy-efficient it is, how cold it can get, extra conveniences (maybe akin to API extensions) like a water/ice dispenser that still can be "copied"/used by other fridges. And I'm sure that maybe those "interfaces" were patented originally, but it seems absurd now that they're so commonplace to restrict who can implement them.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netscape went out of business because their browser crashed far more frequently than Explorer. I've heard all the sob stories, but I was sick of the constant crashing of Netscape, and so tried Explorer. Explorer crashed too, but not nearly as often.

Yup, I can clearly remember Netscape crashing very very often. It was definitely the worse browser.

Exactly this. There's a lot of historic revision that says IE was never good, but there was a significant chunk of time around IE2 and IE3 where it slaughtered Netscape on Windows. Better performance, less crashing all around.

IE4 is where ActiveX and browser bloat started to become more obvious, then IE5 was an improvement again.. but we were only a short time from the launch of what would become Firefox. By that point, people were tired of the constant IE issues.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#845

From the dissent: "Instead of creating its own declaring code—as Apple and Microsoft chose to do— Google copied verbatim 11,500 lines of Oracle’s declaring code and arranged that code exactly as Oracle had done." I didn't read the whole opinion, but what is Google's excuse for this? If there's one way to do it, I don't think copyright should apply. But when there's more than one way, why should copyright not provide…

The 11,500 lines is the API interface, so just the function/class signatures.

They _did_ do a cleanroom implementation, that's the whole issue that makes it an interesting case: are APIs fair use?

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be trademark infringement to use the names, it would be copyright infringement to use the meaningful content of the plot and story.

Not sure that’s correct. Copyright attaches to the actual text (illustrations, etc; whatever is “fixed in a tangible form”), not the ideas. You could write a story about a boy of humble origins who is whisked off to a special school, discovers he’s special, and fights evil. There aren’t that many original plots, after all.... You’ll only get into trouble if the main character is called Harry Potter of 10 Privett Driv…

Copyright covers derivative works. If a story is plainly the same with names changed, the original copyright extends to it. This can be applied to the point of absurdity in music copyrights.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#847

From the dissent: "Instead of creating its own declaring code—as Apple and Microsoft chose to do— Google copied verbatim 11,500 lines of Oracle’s declaring code and arranged that code exactly as Oracle had done." I didn't read the whole opinion, but what is Google's excuse for this? If there's one way to do it, I don't think copyright should apply. But when there's more than one way, why should copyright not provide…

The 11,500 lines is the API interface, so just the function/class signatures. They _did_ do a cleanroom implementation, that's the whole issue that makes it an interesting case: are APIs fair use?

Why did it have to be a verbatim copy rather than just a very similar API spec?

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#848

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://patentlyo.com/patent/2017/05/overlapping-protecting-...

Generally, a comment such as this should also include some words from you about what kind of point you're trying to make by referring to the longer work. I think you're trying to use this blog post as evidence that patent and copyright protection are mutually exclusive, but from skimming this post it seems to only say that they should be mutually exclusive, while the Federal Circuit apparently disagrees. So at the ve…

> Generally, a comment such as this should also include some words from you about what kind of point you're trying to make by referring to the longer work.

Those words were in the previous post.

> And you still haven't addressed why anyone should prefer APIs to be covered by copyright rather than patent law, when patents have much shorter duration and are more easily challenged.

If we know it would be fair use, then copyright is rendered harmless. So in the choice between patents and neutered copyright, it patents are worse.

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#849
Well worth a read. "We reach the conclusion that in this case, where Google reimplemented a user interface, taking only what was needed to allow users to put their accrued talents to work in a new and transformative program, Google’s copying of the Sun Java API was a fair use of that material as a matter of law."

Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]

#850
post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. It is even less decisive than you're saying. The fact that the Supreme Court decided not to overturn the decision of the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit that APIs are copyrightable means that binding precedent on every court except the Supreme is that they are. And for fair use, one of…

Netscape went out of business because their browser crashed far more frequently than Explorer. I've heard all the sob stories, but I was sick of the constant crashing of Netscape, and so tried Explorer. Explorer crashed too, but not nearly as often.

Hmm, I worked at a large company in 1995 as a web dev, and they were paying a license fee "per copy" of Netscape Navigator. I distinctly remember this, because we had 10,000 licenses. But we did get phone support with that, and I talked to Netscape's help desk a few times with various issues I faced as a developer.

Commercial users were paying for Netscape in 1995. It was only free for personal use. Even articles from 1996 mention the cost of Netscape as $49. [1]

So at least part of the reason IE displaced Netscape was that it was free for enterprises. And Netscape was not, until it was too late.

[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/27743/nothing-netscape

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