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Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#841

Post by hans1729 »

mikaeluman wrote: post #809

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

While I completely get the sentiment: I missed these complaints when platforms didn't grant ISIS free reign to spread their propaganda. Dealing in absolutes doesn't do the nuanced systems governing our reality justice, you should know that.

To illustrate: absolutely free speech would imply the right to harmfully agitate kids for whatever your cause is. Does it seem obvious that this is a bad idea? Then just extrapolate "kids are easy to manipulate" to "adults are mostly just older kids".

And btw, I know what it's like to be on the other side. That doesn't justify turning a blind eye to the madness that comes with absolute free speech.

Either you accept that a line has to be drawn somewhere, or you accept every consequence of absolute free speech. Which, imo, would be a terrible idea with 7 billion people just waiting to be gamed through their fears.

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider what we're seeing here unproblematic at all. I just don't consider absolute free speech to be unproblematic either, quite the opposite.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#842

Post by satysin »

This needs to happen. Parler is not a "social network" in the same way Twitter, Facebook or Reddit are. It is a radicalisation platform hiding behind a Silicon Valley style startup veneer.

I signed up for Parler 6 weeks ago and what I have seen from the platform is frightening. It isn't dumb memes and gifs but hardcore alt-right propaganda and conspiracy theories.

Within hours of commenting on posts I was contacted about joining groups of "like minded patriots" (their actual words). This lead to Telegram and Discord servers dedicated to "their cause". These places are highly organised. Unique URLs with multiple 'decoy and delay' steps to find and remove people from sharing links with authorities for example.

They have detailed (probably some of the best tbh) guides on signing up for secure services like Protonmail for email, installing Tor and Tails to access Onion services (this leads to a whole other world of horrors), how to use Bitcoin to purchase what are essentially burner SIM cards and phones to sign up to other services, and advice on how to recruit your friends and family such as conversation topics and “gotcha” responses, manipulated media to share, psychological and emotional manipulation techniques, etc.

The techniques used are no different to what we have seen from groups like ISIS/ISIL over the past decade.

I support free speech but this goes beyond that IMHO. This isn't strongly disagreeing with government policies but clearly talking about murdering those they believe are wrong. I have seen people seriously talking about kidnapping and murdering politicians. Posting photos of their weapons. Sharing detailed instructions on homemade chemical weapons and IEDs from people who clearly have military knowledge of such things.

When ISIS was releasing daily videos of horrific murders everyone called for such recruitment platforms to be shut down. It wasn't a matter of free speech then and it isn't now. The only difference is that these are (mostly) white American and European people not brown people from the middle east. The message and methodologies used are the same though.

Parler is without question a platform for radicalisation and recruitment for "western jihad" as I have seen people un-ironically use. It needs to go and I fully support Amazon, Apple, Google and whoever else in shutting them down.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#843

Post by iNic »

jturpin wrote: post #802
ianbutler wrote: post #758

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I have not yet concluded whether I believe in free speech without limits, but I can at least say with confidence the following: - Freedom of speech is of extremely high importance for any free society and should not be taken for granted - Removing it in any capacity should be done with extreme care and free of any bias one way or another, with a lot of thought put into any future consequences - Speech without a platf…

> - Speech without a platform isn't speech at all

Could you clarify what you mean exactly with this. In my mind people should have a right to ignore speech they don't want to hear. Furthermore, the definition of a "platform" has become very diffuse with the advent of the internet. In the before times you were either in the newspaper most people read, or maybe on one of the handful of TV channels, or you basically did not have a platform beyond the people you could physically interact with. Whereas now you can have many options which all reach different kinds and amounts of people.

I have many vague feelings but maybe I can sum them up in the following, probably unhelpful, statement: people have a right to a platform that is equivalent to standing in a town square and yelling.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#844

Post by jrumbut »

mikaeluman wrote: post #809

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

As long as the public square is privately owned we're going to have problems.

I think it's great these companies have stopped supporting Parler. The problem is that so much power has devolved to these entirely unaccountable organizations that it feels like an infringement of free speech.

We are going to need a stable place for important discourse and that will require carefully designed governance structures, transparency, and independence that no ad supported company can possibly provide.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#845

Post by randomsearch »

I always think about publishing in these circumstances.

In the UK you can't just write anything you want and publish it in a book. I can't just make something up about someone in a book. There are also laws I can't break about inciting violence. Etctera.

I don't see this as much about the individual's right to free speech as about the platform's ability to monetise published content, which is what Twitter and Facebook are doing. When you view things through this prism, I think it's simpler.

Either the platforms conform to the law as a book publisher must, which makes it hard for a real-time _broadcast_ platform to exist, or the platform does not exist at all.

This exposes the social media platforms as another instance of the same pattern as Uber or Airbnb, in that they are publishing platforms that simply ignore the law.

Before you shoot me down here: I agree that being able to share with your friends is not the same as publishing. It's the features that turn the medium from sharing with friends into a broadcast medium that have made the social media companies (reckless) publishers.

I'd like to see an end to the broadcast features, as companies are unlikely to change.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#846

Post by cpursley »

ianbutler wrote: post #758

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I gave you an up vote for your honesty (and do appreciate it).

I've been suggesting this since before all this went down: many left of center folks don't actually believe in free speech; only "correct" speech.

What makes me really nervous is historically, leftist governments have much higher body counts than right wing governments. These types of governments have the commonality that they tightly control speech and thought.

This is all personal as a relative in my wife's side of the family spent half his life in the gulag for having the audacity to suggest Stalin was not a good guy to his drinking buddies (who turns out are the ones that reported him).

If you're on the left (or right), please do some soul searching on this topic. Also consider that it might not be your guy/gal/party who decides what speech is appropriate (and it's a constantly moving target). And in the age of the internet archive, anything you've written in the past is/will be open season. That's pretty scary, at least for me.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#847

Post by exmicrosoldier »

mikaeluman wrote: post #809

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

The first battle of the Second american civil war has happened. Every tech company has to choose a side.

Instead of a war over slavery, this is a war over shared reality or personal echo chambers, and most of the tech companies have been fighting against shared reality.

Please choose wisely and soon. Unified reality or seperate ones.

People are planning to overthrow the government of the country you live in, "in your house".

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#848

Post by Schnitz »

mikaeluman wrote: post #809

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

Hate speech is not protected speech, it's always been that way, even in the US.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#849

Post by andy_ppp »

mikaeluman wrote: post #809

I’ve said it before: I find this highly disturbing. Especially the sense in which it is coordinated. Amazon, Google and Apple acting together to shut down a platform that has been very clear about its stance on content moderation from the outset. Free speech is not just any value. Sooner or later you will find yourself on the side of an issue where your speech will be attacked. Then there is the always present double…

Promotion of violence is NOT part of your free speech rights though. If I go to a bar and start loudly suggesting I’m going to attempt to kill someone, surely the police if they hear about this will step in to find out if the threat is credible. Now if my bar has people discussing murdering people all the time, it’s become my bar that the police are going to close down. Freedom of speech has always been about criticism of government, it’s not a right to be able to say whatever mad illegal stuff pops into your head.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#850

Post by itsthefnlacctdn »

If I was still an edgy teen(surprised Im not are you), Id be actively looking to join the banned groups. I'm worried that these edge places wont have many voices of reason left to turn them away. This will further radicalize. I was curious, how does twitter deal with the real terrorist groups? Isis and Al Q were big til not long ago.

-Understanding the network of pro-ISIS Twitter accounts can help uncover who the primary actors are, how content propagates through the network, and improve the monitoring of ISIS activities.

We are just allowing more horrible stuff to happen in a few years down the line. I thought this freedom of speech was ingrained into this culture - I guess only ideally not practically.

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