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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#841
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

[flagged]

> When the sitting President claims that voting fraud happened they should investigate it, not instantly claim it’s not true because they don’t like him.

Trump isn't in the habit of making accusations with enough substance to start investigating anything, and when he does make specific verifiable claims, they're usually trivially refuted.

You cannot start investigating without some kind of specific evidence or suspicion that points in a particular direction. Lacking that, any claims that the outcome of the election must have resulted from fraud amount to calls for a broad and undirected witch hunt.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#842
I wonder why demonstrating in the capitol is seen as worst than demonstrating around town and destroying innocent people lives and property like BLM did. At least at the capitol they direct it at the politician directly rather than people who got not connection to the issue.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#843
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

> How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? My own impression is that this is far worse in the US than in most other first world countries. If I'm right about that, then explanations based on social media algorithms etc don't really work, because the same algorithms apply in other countries too. It really then…

Our single winner first past the post electoral system and the associated two-party dysfunction are more to blame, as they incentive radical schism.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#844
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

[flagged]

The thing is... The claim of fraud have been investigated and nothing came up. Over 50 legal processes started not a single one of which convinced a judge that there are reasons to investigate. There is nothing for the media to investigate.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#845
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

[flagged]

Journalists did investigate. Just some cursory Googling finds plenty of articles from respected journalists who looked into it and shared their conclusions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/us/politics/voting-fraud....

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#846
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

> How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? My own impression is that this is far worse in the US than in most other first world countries. If I'm right about that, then explanations based on social media algorithms etc don't really work, because the same algorithms apply in other countries too. It really then…

Not to say that you’re wrong but the algorithm takes into account location. A user in the US is going to see a different feed than a user in France. I think it is largely the algorithm and the narratives being pushed by news sources creating the divide. There is a history of trust in newscasters that is being taken advantage of to spread propaganda and it works.

The US might be too big. I want to agree, but I know I’m biased by the media. I want to disagree, but I haven’t traveled to enough of the country to say it confidently.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#847
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

My take: 1) On web sites like this I've noticed a rule "Assume good faith". But in real life there are lots of people who say things in bad faith. In the case of PR people and trial lawyers and partisan politicians it seems to be in the job description to say things in bad faith. I have no solutions on how to fix this- I don't believe in God but I can imagine a deity punishing people who choose to exercise their free…

I followed a train of thought recently that's somewhat related to this. It appears to me the one branch of government that has stood up reasonably well recently is the court system. Courts require a standard of evidence, and while it's clear that justices will try to interpret things as favorable to their partisan beliefs, for the most part they are not willing to simply accept alternate realities. Some people were worried that Trump's lawsuits would find friendly judges despite the lack of evidence, and that overwhelmingly didn't happen.

So that got me wondering, ironically given your listing of lawyers as one of the named bad-faith groups, could government be made to act more like the legal system, or could the legal system be incorporated more into government. One specific idea I was considering was whether you could have the option of a defamation-style judicial review of statements of fact made by elected officials. Obviously you wouldn't litigate every statement, but what if there were some sort of challenge process - perhaps with a fee to bring a challenge, and/or consequences for spurious challenges, so they wouldn't become overwhelming - by which the opposition could challenge any public statement of fact by an elected official? Critically this challenge would be brought in a court of law, with all of the professional standards and requirements that entails. (As opposed to being litigated by politicians, like an impeachment proceeding.) It wouldn't be a criminal proceeding, and there wouldn't be criminal consequences. Probably the result would simply be made public, and maybe the losing side would need to pay the costs of the winning side. Of course they would also have had the opportunity to retract and correct the untrue statement at the outset.

As things stand, the president and his supporters are able to say whatever BS they want publicly, then they go to court with these lawsuits, and they say different things, because there are actual consequences there. Perhaps if there were consequences for any knowing lie by an elected official, you'd see fewer of them? The idea wouldn't be to use this for everything, just for clear, baseless statements of fact with reprocussions. And it's not like truth is unknowable; we already have this kind of litigation around defamation, and it largely works.

Anyway, not like I see anything like this happening, but if I were designing a system of government it's something I'd want to consider. (I suppose there's also the chance of it backfiring, simply politicizing the judiciary by involving it more in politics. But again, the responses to the election lawsuits give me some hope there.)

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#848

Where are the police? Is the police force and now the national guard not controlled by the DC Mayor's office? I don't understand how they weather 1000 protests a year in the capitol and weren't prepared for this.

This is federal government property with many many thousands of federal law officers available to protect from across many departments.

This was either an unforgivable lack of intelligence/preparation OR another example of the gross disparity in treatment between the armed MAGA crowd and for instance black Americans and BLM protestors.

As a comparison, the feds deployed thousands of officers in the District and across the county during BLM protests, often times pushing beyond fed building perimeters which many don't think is legal. Some of the videos with scary unmarked officers/arrests which are terrifying. I use this photo as an example of the crazy policing Trump ordered to scare voters

https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/national-guard-lincoln-memor...

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#849
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

A boiling frog variant of social scale depression. Not enough positive news, too many cracks, doubts. The rest is human nature regressing due to this imbalance. Absolutely not helped by hectic shallow news and social tissue of the day.

My 2 cents

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#850

Honest question: does anyone think this would have happened if Twitter and Facebook did not exist?

I think there is a decent chance: Fox News, talk radio Limbaugh types, Rupert Murdoch media, and even the likes of CNN have all been fomenting this for ratings and $ for decades.

Fox and right radio have pushed insane junk that millions actually believe. It created the widespread tinder before social media.

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