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Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

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Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#841

Post by rhizome »

itronitron wrote: post #766
rhizome wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google’s problem remains its reputation for turning things off. I'd put it this way: Google has a reputation for turning things off, but its _problem_ is an inability to stop doing that, to commit to its users/customers. In other contexts this could be written in terms of addiction. If I were Sergey and Larry, this would be the thing I'd be retiring over, and I'm not sure Suchar can change it.

I think Google needs to explicitly spin out a Google Product company that is customer focused and develops/maintains/supports platforms and applications. It would be distinct from Search and Ads and would instead sell them (and other customers) access to Google data centers and GCP.

I think Google needs to explicitly spin out a Google Product company that is customer focused and develops/maintains/supports platforms and applications.

Honestly, and I'm more of a Google side-eyer than a hater, but I'm not sure they're capable of this, it's just not in their DNA. I've been saying "Google is bad at product" for a long time, like a "high PR" long time, and this mindset has been greeted with continual killoffs and usability stumbles (current Android is kind of a mess UI-wise, e.g.).

I simply don't think they're capable of putting a division together that could be relied upon. Heck, Alphabet might simply kill that off after a few years!

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#842

Post by wayneftw »

DaharMaster79 wrote: post #799
ageofwant wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's irrelevant. Its about trust, commitment and sticking it out. Google's penchant of throwing shit against a wall to see what sticks seems to prevent them from applying themselves to increase the stickiness of their shit. You simply cannot trust Google to do right by me, the user. That's it.

See, the thing is though, that they kill stuff that DOES stick as well. There's plenty of stuff in the Google Graveyard that was still widely used, with large user base, and they kill it anyway. There's no consistent logic to their killing of products. Sometimes they simply don't want to update it, sometimes it's purely internal politics (G+), sometimes there's just no reason we can find.

What people believe about them matters, not whatever internal rationalizations may or may not have occurred.

Aside from their bad reputation for killing products, they also have a bad reputation for providing next to zero human support services for their products - even if you do pay for them.

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#843

Post by dragonsh »

scarface74 wrote: post #822
dragonsh wrote: post #814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS was built to support Amazon website which is built in Perl and still internal AWS core code might contain perl. Probably over the years they might have moved slowly to Java. I don't work for AWS so can't say much. Regarding support for .NET whatever AWS does microsoft will always be way ahead of them. Microsoft is not elastic.co that AWS leech on and put the original guys on the side and don't contribute back. AW…

Regarding support for .NET whatever AWS does microsoft will always be way ahead of them. Microsoft is not elastic.co. Can you give one concrete example of where MS has a feature for .Net that AWS doesn’t have? The only one that I can think of is that their lambda equivalent works with .Net Framework. Amazon doesn’t care about EKS, it’s just a check box option to say they have it. Elastic Container Service is far more…

I did use AWS for good 5 years and every time it's been inferior, e.g. launching times of EC2 instances were double that of Google Cloud, better than azure though (might have changed with new instance type may be), N2 and N1 instances in gcp are usually faster in start, stop delete cycle than AWS as recently as last week. Networking stack between regional nodes is not as performant with higher latency than google cloud with its andromeda network stack, on top its more expensive than google and microsoft for bandwidth. Even though I put critical comments for GCP on this article, I feel AWS fare no better, indeed I feel its worse.

I have yet to see any good open source project by AWS team in the wild like Kubernetes, Linux Kernel Namespaces and Cgroups, Map Reduce from Google or .NET from Microsoft. So far what I have seen is that AWS just leech on other open source like PostgreSQL to build Aurora and RDS service without really contributing back to PostgreSQL, because postgreSQL comes with BSD license AWS can just leech on it. Same for elastic search and many other open source they leech on. I am still waiting if they are really just leechers or giving back to the open source community. Like Amazon Redshift is based on an older version of PostgreSQL 8.0.2, and Redshift has made changes to that version [1], but nothing is made open source because BSD license do not require it. This is just one big example but there are many. For open source community and contributions I feel Google and Microsoft are much better than Amazon and AWS by miles. It's just that due to early start AWS is reaping benefits by leeching on open source.

[1] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/redshift/latest/dg/c_redshift-an...

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#844

Post by scarface74 »

dragonsh wrote: post #843
scarface74 wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding support for .NET whatever AWS does microsoft will always be way ahead of them. Microsoft is not elastic.co. Can you give one concrete example of where MS has a feature for .Net that AWS doesn’t have? The only one that I can think of is that their lambda equivalent works with .Net Framework. Amazon doesn’t care about EKS, it’s just a check box option to say they have it. Elastic Container Service is far more…

I did use AWS for good 5 years and every time it's been inferior, e.g. launching times of EC2 instances were double that of Google Cloud, better than azure though (might have changed with new instance type may be), N2 and N1 instances in gcp are usually faster in start, stop delete cycle than AWS as recently as last week. Networking stack between regional nodes is not as performant with higher latency than google clo…

It seems like you were much more on the infrastructure side than the development side. The discussion was about .Net. What was your experience with the SDKs to judge where AWS was behind MS supporting it?

How does open source help an end user who is deciding which cloud provider to use?

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#845

Post by dragonsh »

scarface74 wrote: post #844
dragonsh wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did use AWS for good 5 years and every time it's been inferior, e.g. launching times of EC2 instances were double that of Google Cloud, better than azure though (might have changed with new instance type may be), N2 and N1 instances in gcp are usually faster in start, stop delete cycle than AWS as recently as last week. Networking stack between regional nodes is not as performant with higher latency than google clo…

It seems like you were much more on the infrastructure side than the development side. The discussion was about .Net. What was your experience with the SDKs to judge where AWS was behind MS supporting it? How does open source help an end user who is deciding which cloud provider to use?

AWS is infrastructure as a service with some priorietray API's to provide platform to build applications. These platforms are build from open source projects which does not have GPLv3 or AGPL license. So AWS is largely an IaaS service not really a platform, open source library or system development company like Google or Microsoft.

AWS does not develop .NET SDK, as I mentioned in my earlier post there is no contribution of AWS in development of .NET, so they just provide infrastructure support of what ever Microsoft and the open source community releases.

In general microsoft acts as a steward to develop .NET and related infrastructure on Azure, then AWS copy and launch it as .NET infrastructure as service. They play catch up with Microsoft in this area.

I will stand corrected if you can show me that AWS (i.e. Amazon) has active open source .NET framework core developers in their internal team developing and enhancing .NET SDK or CLR open source versions.

They do the same with AI and ML Services. It is built using TensorFlow, sci-kit learn, pytorch, CNTK and various python and C++ open source libraries. Again I have yet to see example of AWS (i.e. Amazon hiring core developers of these libraries and release open source versions). They don't develop these libraries just leech on it to create it's own API's. I have yet to see any framework from AWS like TensorFlow, Keras, Pytorch and CNTK.

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#846

Post by sixothree »

ogre_codes wrote: post #536
sixothree wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no offense to the Google team, but they are just awful at UI. I cannot imagine using anything Google related to manage complex hosting scenarios.

Well Amazon isn't exactly the king of great UI either and I'm not in love with Azure's cloud services platform management tools. All of these platforms have an extremely dense set of options which tend to change fast which leads to a very tough UI challenge and rapid UI rot.

Definitely prefer Azure in terms of UI at least than AWS. I don't even want to know what google is doing with management.

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#848

Post by ruxx »

Knowing that there is a risk of being de-platformed and loosing all your client data, and not being able to offer your service, etc, is a deterrent for most people, Google has a very difficult job here to change and then communicate the way they will deal with users will not be like gmail or YouTube.

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#849

Post by prox »

dmix wrote: post #770
prox wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And maybe they won’t kill it, but I ve had a number of times platform changes killed features I used. Thing is, with a company I pay for I can vote with my wallet. With Google it’s just sending a message and hoping it doesn’t end up in nullspace somewhere. Google is just too big as a company, and if they replaced every human in it with drones no one would know the difference. There is no human face or point of contac…

My girlfriend was able to get on the phone with a tech support person for her small business ads and I was shocked she was able to even talk to someone at Google over a phone without being a major company with a big monthly bill. The woman was still snarky to her and unhelpful but still a real human was available. A lot of this has to do with our own perceptions and trust. Purchasing decisions are never fully rationa…

Ads are the only place afaik where you can get to speak a human. Try Youtube for instance :)

In any case, its a free market, but buying from vendors who I can talk to if something happens, has way more value to me than a ‘free’ product.

Re: Google Brass Set 2023 as Deadline to Beat Amazon, Microsoft in Cloud

#850

Post by scarface74 »

dragonsh wrote: post #845
scarface74 wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you were much more on the infrastructure side than the development side. The discussion was about .Net. What was your experience with the SDKs to judge where AWS was behind MS supporting it? How does open source help an end user who is deciding which cloud provider to use?

AWS is infrastructure as a service with some priorietray API's to provide platform to build applications. These platforms are build from open source projects which does not have GPLv3 or AGPL license. So AWS is largely an IaaS service not really a platform, open source library or system development company like Google or Microsoft. AWS does not develop .NET SDK, as I mentioned in my earlier post there is no contribut…

Again, the discussion was about AWS being behind Azure with respect to support for .Net. When deciding which cloud provider one should go with, why should I care as an end user which company did more for open source?

There is nothing to copy as far as .Net. Microsoft releases a new version of .Net, all AWS has to do is make sure that its SDK’s support it. But there usually aren’t any breaking changes.

As far as the other services that I could see needing to support, the only ones that I can think of is CodeBuild and lambda. For those two, you can create custom Docker images and runtimes respectively.

And the other question, are you a .Net developer?

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