Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#841

Post by mighty_bander » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> his friend who ... is accused

It's the accused that is the problem with this. He isn't defending the proven actions of a pervert, he is defending the memory of a dead friend, suggesting that his friend was incapable of the crime of which he is accused. If defending an accused friend is now itself punishable by excision from society, then the effect of an accusation alone becomes immediate isolation. The presumption of innocence, not only in court, but in public discourse, is a vital component of a genuinely free society. I will not support people who reject it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#842

Post by zby » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

Come on - if I accuse you of being 74 and having sex with a a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island - then nobody can defend you? Minsky is dead and he cannot defend himself, the girl said she was directed to have sex with him - but she did not say she eventually did it, she did answer a question about where she went to do that and she answered that which would imply that she had sex with him - but it is entirely possible that she meant the place where she was directed to do it, but eventually failed, there is a witness saying that he turned her down. These are the facts from the deposition and it is fair to point them out.

There is another aspect of his emails - he also wrote that she presented herself as willing and that was entirely misquoted as 'she was willing', which was unfair. Stallman's point was that it is a bit misleading to characterise the act as 'assault' if it was she who sought out Minsky and he was not aware of the fact that she was coerced by Epstein. This is a bit insensitive splitting hair - but the misquoting was really mean.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#843

Post by liha » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

I'm surprised at the number of news headlines and comments saying that Stallman defended Epstein. He absolutely did not. His entire point can be summed up as "if person A (Epstein) coerces a 17 year old girl into approaching and having sex with person B (Minsky), and does a hypothetically convincing job of it, is person B (Minsky) guilty of statutory rape / sexual assault?" His argument is valid considering Guiffre never accused Minsky of sexual assault, and doubly valid considering there is at least one witness who said that while Guiffre approached them, Minsky did not have sex with her. Even for the people saying that it IS statutory rape in a court of law (i.e. ignorance of her age doesn't matter to the court), please consider that Minsky isn't actually "guilty" because this hasn't been proven in said court of law.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#844

Post by xwolfi » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #815

cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

>As long of course as no one is coerced into anything In what insane hypothetical does a 17 year old girl have consensual sex with a 74 year old man on a billionaire's island? At best it's prostitution, c'mon.

Let's not be completely idiotic and remember who we were at 17. Idiotic and acting before thinking, sure, but far from totally clueless.

There's something beyond slavery and prostitution, there's willing exploitation of the old guy for money, beyond the sexual service. If it was a young stud with an old lady, you'd think twice before saying the old lady is a dirty pervert, right :D

But that's never been the point: the point is you and me can debate to no end about bullshit like that with half information and no legal culture, but Stallman, as a member of faculty, has 0 legitimacy doing it on faculty mail.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#845

Post by butterfi » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

I totally agree, this could have all been avoided if someone pulled him aside and told him to sit on his hands. RMS is brilliant, but he does seem to be tone deaf. Now is not the time for old white men of privilege to be commenting on the sexuality of young women. (not that it ever was appropriate)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#846

Post by neoliberal_dad » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

That this is being framed as a matter of free speech is preposterous. Richard Stallman isn't some low-level engineer. He runs one of the largest and most impactful open source foundations in the world. The question isn't whether it's ok to have these kinds of discussions. Stallman's questions were, to my mind, obtuse and silly, and a 74 year-old shouldn't need those things explained to him, but some people do. The important question is this: is somebody who is this obtuse about rape victims and the difficulties that women face in the workforce fit to lead one of the biggest and most impactful open source organizations in the world? The answer to that is clearly no.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#847

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #749

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

What he said, for posterity: > "The most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing," Stallman wrote in his post last Wednesday. "Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term 'sexual assault' in a…

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#848

Post by bas » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #581

anotheryou wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand even with this resignation he doesn't appologize for anything. He could even have made his point of thinking it's a misunderstanding and appologize, but didn't.

Kevin Hart apologized for some offensive jokes, he apologized as advised by the academy, and still got cancelled. Apologizing only serves to augment the conviction of a mob intent on finding fault.

Indeed. Those who apologize must submit to a struggle session.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#849

Post by xwolfi » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #745

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

Dude, Stallman has been spitting his bullshit to the world and we had no way to stop the vomit, coming out of universities. How many young people have wasted their youth following his ideas, reading his stuff, until they finally realized it was all shit.

So, yeah, now it's catching up to him, for something nobody in his right mind every does in a corporate environment: giving his opinion on the moral definition of rape. Fucking come on man, how can you defend this moron, who does that ?

You see yourself tomorrow, in charge of the education of students, writing around to your colleagues about what is or is not a rape, for all to record and copy paste to newspapers ? At least do it on skype and add a smiley...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#850

Post by torben-friis » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #736

colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

A point that I'm not seeing raised enough is that Stallman's current job is nowadays almost purely evangelisation and PR. He is a public figure.

In that context, fired is more than fair. His image being linked with pedophilia (on top of the other issues he has) makes him a really bad choice for the public face of a movement/foundation.

If he was, say, a lead engineer whose work was not tied to his image, we could have an argument - but that's quite clearly not the case.