James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#841

Post by tbrownaw » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #702

MollyR wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a fast 7 figure settlement. Conservatives/Populists groups are literally salivating for discovery to nail google on other things. EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Discovery could go wrong for Google in a million ways. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-…

> EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Since they were G+ blocklists, they were obviously on company computers. OTOH, it's not clear (despite the lawsuits characterization, which is pretty directly contradicted by the posts and emails offered to support it) that these were motivated by ideology rather th…

OTOH, it's not clear (despite the lawsuits characterization, which is pretty directly contradicted by the posts and emails offered to support it) that these were motivated by ideology rather than disruptive manner of expressing that in the workplace.

Given how a lot of the other provided examples were claims of supporting Trump being blatant asshattery, I don't think they necessarily do contradict it.

Moreover, it's not clear they they were, in fact, used for any problematic purpose.

Some of the examples have managers acknowledging that being on the lists makes work more difficult and interferes with promotions / transfers. And saying that well, if that bothers you then you shouldn't support [things that Trump supporters are accused of supporting].

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#842

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:53 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #807

gizmo686 wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the complaint: "23. Damore was diligent and loyal, and received substantial praise for the quality of his work. Damore received the highest possible rating twice, including in his most recent performance review, and consistently received high performance ratings, placing him in the top few percentile of Google employees. Throughout the course of his employment with Google, Damore received approximately eight per…

Yes, I'm sure Damore claims he was excellent. But claims of excellence do not correlate perfectly with actual excellence. And neither do promotion packets; I'm sure we've all worked with somebody who did better on paper than was justified. So I'd still like to see his code. And talk with some of his coworkers.

You're just mining for something by now. It is clear that you implication that Damore was a sore loser that covered his lack of performance by blaming diversity has no connection to reality. Damore had performance completely satisfactory by Google's standards, and achieved significant praise from his peers, so whatever would be your evaluation of it, he was not in a loser position, had no reason to be sore for anything and had no reason to blame diversity for anything related to performance or its perception by others. Time to leave this horse, it's dead.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#843

Post by smsm42 » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:58 AM UTC

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #757

Gusbenz wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does she even bother looking at the docs or would that also denote how useless she is?

Well, she is learning it now and I wouldn't call her "useless". But her level of experience and knowledge is far below "software engineer" and if she were a guy she couldn't get away with it.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#844

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:09 AM UTC

mdarens wrote: post #596

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no irony here. The anti-union feeling is prevalent in SV and has little to do with this affair.

the irony is that the subcultural current with which damore sympathizes is generally pretty anti-union as well, but being represented by one probably would've provided him some protection.

I don't think it's about keeping a job any more.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#845

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #765

bduerst wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, which may be fine for the burden of proof for a personal opinion. Incorrectly using evidence to support your opinion as you broadcast it at work, and not listening, discussing, or considering critical feedback (like this) is a different matter. Especially when it means incorrectly classifying your co-workers and trying to change how your work fights social biases.

I think you may have it backwards. I'm not sure if you read his memo, but it was actually Damore who was inviting discussion and listening to feedback. He was not met with anything resembling constructive discussion, but instead was fired and publicly shamed, in most cases based on fabrications of statements that he did not make, and that did not reflect his intent. Even this techcrunch article is full of them unfort…

As someone on HN once said, we won't discuss the core of the problem not because what he said is untrue, but because the outcome of discussion may hurt peoples' feelings, and this is not the right thing to do...

I see their point, but there is a way of discussing it in a way that would minimize this risk. On the other hand, if you have some assumptions and consider their negation offensive, it's very difficult to have any form of conversation.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#846

Post by tanilama » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:52 AM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

> no big company will ever hire him

Palantir or Peter Thiel will just have him well.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#847

Post by tanilama » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:56 AM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #431

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #210

Whatever you think of the memo, you have to be a little concerned about the precedent this would set if companies were not allowed to discriminate based on 'political' views. Should I be forced to hire a neo-nazi or a terrorist sympathiser so long as they're up to the job?

In California, by state law, companies are in fact not allowed to discriminate based on political views in hiring and firing. See http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection... > Should I be forced to hire a neo-nazi or a terrorist sympathiser so long as they're up to the job? Just like you should be "forced" to hire a Greenpeace member, or a union organizer, or someone outspokenly pro-choice, or som…

Isn't employment in California in major big tech companies are titled at will?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#848

Post by Aloha » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:59 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #738

d1zzy wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can be positives of hiring to increase diversity which aren't related strictly to their performance in the role they occupy. Two such arguments for this kind of policies: - by giving them jobs which they wouldn't otherwise have the skills to fill you are trying to break the "cycle" (more on that below) - having different viewpoints in a team can be beneficial beyond the skill set those people should bring accor…

have the benefit that now those people get included in a social environment that they would normally be cut out from, get payed more than they would otherwise and, hopefully, this will trickle down to their children and grandchildren Irish immigrants started out from a culture, where the typical peasant was 1/2 to 1/4th as wealthy as the median pre-Civil War American Slave. There was a period of time when ethnic Iris…

>The Polish and Italian immigrant groups' IQs increased from 85 to over 100 over the 1st half of the 20th century.

Yes, because of improved living conditions, and better food compared to the old country - not because of political leadership.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#849

Post by jhanschoo » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 8:03 AM UTC

Goladus wrote: post #829

jhanschoo wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It seemed to me that Damore's memo was nevertheless fallacious, though nevertheless totally unworthy of the criticism that he received. Unlike in fields we are used to, psychological results have remarkably little prescriptive power given the inherently complex and malleable nature of social structures, and it's still pretty much up in the air how much or little effect nature has on preferences and to what e…

"American women" as a class now have a sufficiently loud voice Why is it important that they have a sufficiently loud voice "as a class?" This seems backwards to me. The whole point of liberation is liberation to be treated as an individual not as a member of a class based on something contextually irrelevant like your biological sex.

I agree that it is backwards, but it's heavily ingrained in US politics that decisions revolve around classes. Politicians make decisions thinking about which class they will benefit, which class (and their representatives) they will receive support from, etc.

Empowering the individual is a noble goal, but that is a separate battle with a different front.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#850

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 8:30 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #772

jhanschoo wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It seemed to me that Damore's memo was nevertheless fallacious, though nevertheless totally unworthy of the criticism that he received. Unlike in fields we are used to, psychological results have remarkably little prescriptive power given the inherently complex and malleable nature of social structures, and it's still pretty much up in the air how much or little effect nature has on preferences and to what e…

There is a silver lining to all this for me: it shows that whereas women used to have little voice in the public sphere, "American women" as a class now have a sufficiently loud voice There is nothing good about someone who has a "sufficiently loud voice" -- if that loudness comes not from principle and merit, but from emotional toxicity.

The way I see it is that the feminism movement of old basically won - women voices are being heard and treated as equally important in the society. But like many movements, instead of dissolving after successful accomplishment of its mission, it transformed into a form that tries to perpetuate its own survival and status of importance.