Earlier quoted context omitted.
> because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. Is this really an honest assessment? I haven't yet seen a single reply to the manifesto that addresses its points and counters the supposedly "lousy arguments" in a neutral tone and objective manner. Please point me to one if you have...
https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... - this qualifies for me
Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
841–850 of 1001 posts
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#842Let's put it straight. There are obvious, hardwired evolutionary specialization among sexes of all species. Sexes are evolutionary innovation to achieve better survival rates (achieved by the process of evolurionary trial and error and natural selection) not some stupid religious nonsense. So, there is no equality in principle, by definition, by design. The notion of equal rights is completely different story, it is social realm - few levels up from underlying biology.
There is not a single doubt that biology dominates and partially determines psychology (the nature part of the Nature and Nurture whole). Biology also dominates sociology - most of human traditions and social norms are deeply grounded in biological differences and specialization - there is nothing to talk about. Animal behavioral patterns, which could be called "traditions of species" are, obviously, determined by biology and environmental factors.
At least few stereotypes produced by various human cultures (products of social formations, partially determined by biology) are reflections to various extend of these real, existing, "material" fundamental differences captured in traditions. Dismissal of all the stereotypes as a category is plain stupidity.
Hipsters and snowflakes who are trying to gain attention by "challenging" objective reality with their naive memes (the ridiculous attempts to redefine what sexes are and what it is for with "third sex" nonsense is an obvious example) at very least raise some brows.
Notice that I am not in the least "conservative", I am principal and scientific. There are evolutional and biological reasons why this or that aspect of sex differences emerged and what is for. Whatever is valid for all species applies to humans too, no matter what liberal arts graduates would say about man's superiority.
Nature forms and dominates, Nurture varies and adapts. There is not a single doubt that equal rights must be given to both sexes (there are only two of them) and equal rights must be protected.
This is where the notion of equality ends. Equality of sexes is a hipster's utter nonsense, not because conservatives think so, or some popular religious text says so, but for straightforward scientific reasons, anatomical and neurobiological. This is so-called objective reality, and opinions and memes of current snowflakes are simply non-applicable.
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#843" This has been a very difficult time. I wanted to provide an update on the memo that was circulated over this past week. First, let me say that we strongly support the right of Googlers to express themselves, and much of what was in that memo is fair to debate, regardless of whether a vast majority of Googlers disagree with it. However, portions of the memo violate our Code of Conduct and cross the line by advancing harmful gender stereotypes in our workplace. Our job is to build great products for users that make a difference in their lives. To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK. It is contrary to our basic values and our Code of Conduct, which expects “each Googler to do their utmost to create a workplace culture that is free of harassment, intimidation, bias and unlawful discrimination.” The memo has clearly impacted our co-workers, some of whom are hurting and feel judged based on their gender. Our co-workers shouldn’t have to worry that each time they open their mouths to speak in a meeting, they have to prove that they are not like the memo states, being “agreeable” rather than “assertive,” showing a “lower stress tolerance,” or being “neurotic.” At the same time, there are co-workers who are questioning whether they can safely express their views in the workplace (especially those with a minority viewpoint). They too feel under threat, and that is also not OK. People must feel free to express dissent. So to be clear again, many points raised in the memo—such as the portions criticizing Google’s trainings, questioning the role of ideology in the workplace, and debating whether programs for women and underserved groups are sufficiently open to all—are important topics. The author had a right to express their views on those topics—we encourage an environment in which people can do this and it remains our policy to not take action against anyone for prompting these discussions. The past few days have been very difficult for many at the company, and we need to find a way to debate issues on which we might disagree—while doing so in line with our Code of Conduct. I’d encourage each of you to make an effort over the coming days to reach out to those who might have different perspectives from your own. I will be doing the same. I have been on work related travel in Africa and Europe the past couple of weeks and had just started my family vacation here this week. I have decided to return tomorrow as clearly there’s a lot more to discuss as a group—including how we create a more inclusive environment for all. "
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#844People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…
You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#845Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 10 page pseudo-intellectual manifestos about your inherent inferiority at performing in technical and leadership roles Is there any way to discuss generalized differences that won't be perceived as absolute and insulting? The memo clearly did not make any claims about all women, and the topic at hand (gender representation in roles) is a general one. If there are general differences between men and women, we could…
>Is there any way to discuss generalized differences that won't be perceived as absolute and insulting? Whatever it is, I don't want to hear it in an internal memo, I don't want to hear anyone's opinions in a memo unless it's about the product. Honestly, in a workplace, if I didn't ask for your opinion on something and we're no talking about it in person, I don't care.
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#846Nearly, this entire thread can be summed up as: "It isn't fair that ..." Does anybody else find these discussions centred fairness and social rules to be tedious?
We should strive to get beyond fair, and beyond the conventional level of moral reasoning.
A diversity programme is not fair in the moment, but is designed to right historical wrongs. By definition it is probably sub optimal in serving this purpose. But hey, most human decisions are made based on subconscious impressions anyway, regardless of which corporate programme might be in place.
For those who don't like diversity programmes, let this fact comfort you. For those that do like them, see them as a statement of intent to be inclusive of others[2] but take them with a grain of salt.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task Where a difficult puzzle becomes easier to solve when framed in the context of policing a social rule.
2. In addition to being obsessed with petty social rules and who broke them, humans are also inherently tribal, and almost unconsciously split into in-groups and out-groups. I find it impossible to believe that this kind of outgurouping might not be happening during hiring decisions.
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#847Earlier quoted context omitted.
You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…
Might be worth remembering that companies like Google have significant links with education systems, so they can address their hiring not just at the "who is applying" stage. Also, regarding "lowering the bar" - remember there is a lot more to building a SWE team than finding people who can do the best whiteboard coding challenges. Coding skills can be improved, diversity of backgrounds is also a team strength and on…
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#848Earlier quoted context omitted.
You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. If the author is wrong, that there definitely isn't some inherit genetic behavioral bias influencing job choice, than the bias is happening before students finish highschool. I'm a proponent for an "early bias" theory because of far l…
> You imply bias in the the hiring process is what is causing the gender imbalance in tech. Indicators such university enrollment in CS programs show that this is unlikely to be the case. You are assuming that women are choosing their college degrees in a vacuum. They don't. They ask: can I see myself doing this job? Is this a worthwhile investment? And when they cannot see themselves working in tech, because they se…
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#849Fun fact: the author of the memo earned a PhD in Biology from Harvard. Google can fire him and get away with it, but it's going to be tough, very tough, for him to be falsely characterized as someone who is misinformed or unscientific. And the court of public opinion may well be more important in this controversy than any court of law.
I have a PhD in astrophysics from a peer institution of Harvard. I know dozens of people with PhDs who are "misinformed and unscientific" on many topics, including their nominal specialization. And by the way, another fun fact: As far as I can can tell, he doesn't have a PhD. He didn't publish any papers while he was at Harvard. You don't get through a modern elite PhD program without making any contribution to the l…
Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo
#850Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias, then the lack of that program means those women wouldn't have gotten those jobs. This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified men. Because you have to hire wom…
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about diversity programs, and their purpose. Let's use tech leadership as an example: The problem they're solving shouldn't be "we need more women in tech, so let's lower the bar for them". The problem they should be solving is "There are two candidates for this leadership position. One tends to use assertiveness and authority to get the job done. The other uses encouragement…
I couldn't agree more with it. And I think it is one of the points of the infamous memorandum. We should change how the companies works internally so we can use other skills in our benefit. I am not sure the diversity programs work like this, because if they worked like this the focus should be more inside the internal culture than in the hiring process. They would say something like we need to teach people in the company to increase the tolerance and assess diversity skill instead of increasing the diversity. Increasing diversity should be an emerge feature not a goal.