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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#841

Post by bogomipz »

qb45 wrote: post #772
bogomipz wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sex worker" denotes consensual sex work, while "prostitution" includes human trafficking. Also sex workers includes dancers in strip clubs, phone sex operators and adult magazine models none of which engage in the physical act of sex with others as part of their job: https://rewire.news/article/2008/05/06/sex-work-trafficking-...

Agree about strippers etc, but to me "sex worker" sounds like something that could equally well be voluntary or coerced, just like any other worker. Wikipedia article on gulags refers to prisoners as "workers" several times.

The term has actually been promoted by sex workers specifically to distinguish it from the cooered version of sexual employment.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#842

Post by qb45 »

bogomipz wrote: post #841
qb45 wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree about strippers etc, but to me "sex worker" sounds like something that could equally well be voluntary or coerced, just like any other worker. Wikipedia article on gulags refers to prisoners as "workers" several times.

The term has actually been promoted by sex workers specifically to distinguish it from the cooered version of sexual employment.

Yeah, weaponized linguistics. The problem is, as any weapon, it can backfire.

General public doesn't give a rat's ass about jargon churned out by all those activists. And I'm absolutely not singling out sex workers here, SJWs tend to be the biggest offenders now.

If public familiarity with some subtle, nonobvious definition of "sex worker" is an important point of their strategy, they are probably doing it wrong. If they are getting collateral damage from the human trafficking propaganda, they can talk about "legal sex work" or whatever to cut themselves from it.

Activists overestimate familiarity with their jargon and ideas in the public. Firstly, because they live in echo chambers. Secondly, because virtue signalers amplify apparent popularity outside of the echo chambers too. It's a trap. Ask people who were sure that Trump will lose.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#843

Post by stcredzero »

abalone wrote: post #320
stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

> To say the overt "no" -- to directly say what you want and mean -- is to claim agency as an adult. You're blaming women for not being "adult" enough in their response to juvenile male behavior. It is these men who should start acting like adults. And how do you know the women didn't say no? The article notes that some of the women faced retribution after rebuffing men. > Disclosure, this comes to mind because of so…

You're blaming women for not being "adult" enough in their response to juvenile male behavior. It is these men who should start acting like adults.

That's a ridiculous false dichotomy. When people own their preference and viewpoint, people respect them more. Men who act like juveniles should clearly act more adult. Fully grown women who act like they're timid middle-schoolers should also act more adult. It's the workplace where people communicate honestly and clearly that produces results when breaking new ground and dealing with subtle and complex trade-offs. (Again, this isn't a discussion of people or events in the article, but rather a general one.)

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#844

Post by stcredzero »

abalone wrote: post #837
stcredzero wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes his assertion a politically motivated non sequitur. Only if you incorrectly assume a particular intention on my part. However, if you take what I said at face value, it's simply a valid observation. I think it's one of the most important and fundamental observations to be made: that of the power dynamic. Feminism has much to say about such power dynamics. I think your bias is clearly showing.

That is like arguing "I'm just saying there should be equal rights for white people" on a post about white-on-black harassment because MLK Jr had "much to say about equality." Taken in context it is an attempt to deny the imbalance of power that exists and which civil rights / feminism seek to dismantle.

That is like arguing "I'm just saying there should be equal rights for white people" on a post about white-on-black harassment because MLK Jr had "much to say about equality."

No, it's more like mentioning how people should be judged on the contents of their character, not the color of their skin. It's more like citing the importance of understanding the ideological basis of activism in the protection of individual rights and dignity. These are two points of great importance to MLK's activism where many of today's social justice activists are very weak.

Taken in context it is an attempt to deny the imbalance of power that exists and which civil rights / feminism seek to dismantle.

If you look at the greater historical context, you will find that overcompensation and tilting the playing field "the other way" doesn't produce greater social justice. However, I congratulate you for coming out and saying overtly that you are for creating an imbalance going "the other way." You thereby admit that you are not for a "level playing field" but rather an "equality of outcome."

I'd bet "equality of outcome" is a great way to run a startup! (/jk)

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#845

Post by tnzn »

throwaway338833 wrote: post #817
everdayimhustln wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't archetypes or labels; that's too black & white, un-nuanced thinking. Psychological and sociological reseach proved most people act however they're expected to within a given power dynamic circumstance, except for a few outliers which will go their own way, for anti- or pro-community. This wrong "bad apples" analogy as it applies to police or genocide perpetrators also is dangerous because it's simply un…

Sorry but no. The two experiments you cite are ancient and riddled with holes, they are red flags for any psychologist worth their salt. The people described in this article are sexist assholes, plain and simple. You can argue all about how the environment they grew up in made them that way, but not that that's not what they are.

Milgram's experiment has been replicated several time, even in several cultures. Good to know social psychology researchers are not "worth their salt"

And yeah, actually, your culture and socialization is a big part of what you are. You can blame them, but refusing to try and understand how they became assholes means nothing will change.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#846

Post by tnzn »

microcolonel wrote: post #215
josephpmay wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is illegal in many states

Just realized it's illegal in California, what a sorry and oppressive place California is. Most of the wonders in California appear to be natural, and stand in spite of human intervention rather than because of it.

Found the right-wing libertarian.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#847

Post by tnzn »

djhworld wrote: post #542
nashashmi wrote: post #521

Isn't there an inherent culture among men that dates all the way back to middle school, high school, and college that somewhat sets the tone for inappropriate behavior later in life? These kinds of behaviours happen a lot and begin at a very young age. And they seem to be okayed by nearly everyone then. Why don't these things stop before they begin? I almost feel sorry for the men in these stories because the rules s…

You can't tarnish all men with the same brush though. Not all men exhibit this behaviour.

You forgot the hashtag, mate. #notallmen.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#848

Post by greglindahl »

qb45 wrote: post #842
bogomipz wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term has actually been promoted by sex workers specifically to distinguish it from the cooered version of sexual employment.

Yeah, weaponized linguistics. The problem is, as any weapon, it can backfire. General public doesn't give a rat's ass about jargon churned out by all those activists. And I'm absolutely not singling out sex workers here, SJWs tend to be the biggest offenders now. If public familiarity with some subtle, nonobvious definition of "sex worker" is an important point of their strategy, they are probably doing it wrong. If…

So, for example, let's say you're an activist and you use "SJW" with the general public. Is that an example of overestimating familiarity with your jargon?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#849

Post by danyim »

bt4u2 wrote: post #497
matt4077 wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if it is appropriate to say, don't. don't don't. > but I think overt preference in hiring females is one of the biggest cause. nope. inappropriate. > Almost every tech company hire women with less qualifications to improve the the diversity. Wrong Wrong Wrong > I know it is for the best, but in personal experience, it is very spoken thing between some males. It isn't. >"I was getting confused figuring…

Why are comments like this allowed? Putting fingers in your ears and scream "no!!!" over and over is not very useful or constructive

I agree, the grandparent comment is not contributing to the discussion by disagreeing with every point without providing any meaningful counterpoint.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#850

Post by speedplane »

everdayimhustln wrote: post #569
ronilan wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. Never attribute to rational decision making what can be attributed to rotten character.

People aren't archetypes or labels; that's too black & white, un-nuanced thinking. Psychological and sociological reseach proved most people act however they're expected to within a given power dynamic circumstance, except for a few outliers which will go their own way, for anti- or pro-community. This wrong "bad apples" analogy as it applies to police or genocide perpetrators also is dangerous because it's simply un…

People must be responsible for their actions, even if an environment influenced their decisions. Yes, to fix the issue, there needs to be larger societal change. But individual perpetrators need punishment as well.

There are two reasons for this. First, punishment of the "bad apples" deters others in the future, and brings about the larger societal change. Second, as a basic principal of a free society, people must be held accountable for their actions.

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