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Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

susanjfowler.com

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Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#841
post #15

In case anyone isn't sure why the original interaction is harassment: relationships within a reporting chain are generally prohibited, for both legal, ethical, and practical reasons. Sex becoming part of the effective job description crosses both legal and ethical lines, and team effectiveness is hindered when people wonder whether someone is getting special treatment because they're sleeping with the boss. A manager…

Tech workers (across all disciplines) need to unionize to combat this kind of thing. As has been pointed out below, HR that is staffed and incentivized by the company management only serves the interests of the management. A union is the only structure that can actually win demands for workers by organizing workers to withhold their labor. It's not a panacea, and there are several historical examples of union leaders…

Tech workers (across all disciplines) need to unionize to combat this kind of thing.

First they need articulable set of goals, based on a sound principled base. With such a base, to unionize or not is an implementation detail. But a union without guiding principles would be exactly the morally bankrupt negotiation tool unions are often accused of being. A union should never be more important to the unionized than the ideals it implements. Because if it ever is, the workers no longer control the union, the union controls the workers.

To that point, I have yet to see "tech" at large, or even software engineers seriously discuss principles for the purpose of a principled professional life. I hear complaints about individual things that are negative on the face have moralistic reasoning applied after the fact. But no guiding vision.

Just like we assume the people in movies poop [0] even though we never see it, an "obviously" unacceptable thing happening leads to have conversations resting on unspoken assumptions that someone solved what a professional environment is off-screen. If we want demands for what a work environment should be like to be taken seriously, we have to figure it out. Upfront, on-screen, and to create something people can believe in.

to combat this kind of thing

fight management on these kinds of issues.

Can you articulate what the KIND of issues are? The category can easily be labeled with synonyms for "bad" and easily have things like a misogynistic work environment placed within the category, but WHAT IS the category. What are the defining lines?

If every developer took the time to figure out what they believe in, or adopted the (e.g.) ACM Code to their professional life, it might not even take a union.

[0] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NobodyPoops

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit surprised so many people want to give her advice. She's already taken a really bold step and written cogently and in a balanced way about her situation, the toxic culture at Uber, and made it clear she's moved on to a better place. Why talk about what she should be doing and hasn't done as if there is only one way to resolve this? Why not give thanks to the writer for writing this and putting up with all th…

I'm confused by your comment. How does it fit with the parent comment? Your comment doesn't seem to make sense as either agreeing with the parent comment (as it nothing about giving advice) nor does it seem to contradict the parent comment (which isn't giving advice or giving Uber some kind of pass). Could you clarify?

We should be talking about the actions of uber and her manager, not what she should or could do. I don't think the author really needs commentary on what comes next, and if she wants it I'm sure she'll know who to ask. We could all usefully reflect on how to stop this happening though.

I hope that helps; if it doesn't perhaps consider why she wrote the article (I doubt it was to solicit comments on what her actions could be).

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#843

HR is there to protect the company in the US. I've seen lots of people fired over things like this. If they had fired you they would have given you severance in exchange for a gag order given the circumstances. Under the Obama administration you might have seen more prosecution over things like this but not under Trump.

Because the Obama administration was so supportive of whistle blowers?

So, just downvote and move on with your ignorance intact? OK.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#844
post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully expected this thread to be a shitshow, but comments here are overwhelmingly supportive of Fowler, and except perhaps for the very bottom of the thread, I don't see much much "this is unbelievable" at all. I'm pleasantly surprised.

What scares me is that there is no evidence, only allegation. Yet people are jumping on the bandwagon, making sure to pillory anything they disagree with in connection to an alleged incident. Guess what? People lie. Until some proof is offered, you should treat the accuser with dignity but assume the story is false.

Why would she expose herself to libel laws? Why would she risk her career? Is she not capable of describing her experience and be seen as a witness to her own treatment?

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#845

What shocks me is the talented engineers still putting in hard work for the benefit of this system that they all hate. Companies blackball employees all the time, but the employees are happy to go the extra mile for an antisocial management structure and a megalomaniac boss? What's wrong with you people?

My guess is that they really do enjoy the other parts of their job and even the company itself, and are really sad about the bad parts that are making life difficult. That coupled with a hope that things might get better.. Everyone has a different breaking point when it comes to these things.

Maybe you just want to stick it out until the first year cliff when it comes to your RSUs so at least you have something to show for the below-market salary you agreed to. It sucks that you have to suffer through this crap but sometimes the potential financial upside you might be able to hold onto is worth a little more pain.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#846
post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scares me is that there is no evidence, only allegation. Yet people are jumping on the bandwagon, making sure to pillory anything they disagree with in connection to an alleged incident. Guess what? People lie. Until some proof is offered, you should treat the accuser with dignity but assume the story is false.

Why would she expose herself to libel laws? Why would she risk her career? Is she not capable of describing her experience and be seen as a witness to her own treatment?

I have no problem with describing one's alleged experience. I take issue with treating it as the truth, despite providing no evidence. This is all unsubstantiated hearsay.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something called the Ballmer Peak, which has even been demonstrated in one study. Up to a point, the theory goes, creative work benefits from mild intoxication. Beyond that point, productivity goes out the window. For me, I believe that point is around two drinks. For you, it could be teaspoons. Either way, I wouldn't generally drink before the end of the work day. Personally, I find coding is hardest when y…

> There is something called the Ballmer Peak Wait, we're citing XKCD comics now as if they are peer-reviewed scientific journals?

There's actually one peer-reviewed study in a psychology journal. Granted, it's only one data point and might not be applicable directly to coding. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-alcohol-make-men-smarter-stu...

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#848

By all indications, Uber has a toxic work culture that costs them both top talent and organizational velocity. I'm a college senior at a well-regarded engineering school. My CS classmates - especially women - simply do not apply to Uber, in large part because of its reputation for internal misogyny and general assholery. Four classmates interned there last summer, and as far as I know none are interested in returning…

The real problem in Uber's engineering orgs is that Uber hired too many people for too few real projects. From what I learned from my friends in Uber, many teams had largely overlapping responsibilities, and therefore created bogus projects to justify their existence. Their standard MO is picking a missing feature in a service, and then creating a new system that implemented that feature. It might be okay if all the…

I realized Uber was in pretty bad shape 2 years ago when the company i was at was trying to hire one of their VPs of Engineering. Not only did they have many VPs of Engineering, they had multiple VPs of Engineering in his specific discipline. It seemed like people were literally only there to get a title and a piece of the kingdom.

Which is funny because my experience at Uber was EXACTLY the same. 3 years ago one of the heads of their department emailed me and asked me to come in and give a talk to their managers as the team wasn't doing so well. After I did this, I asked the VP if they were hiring at my level (I was a director/senior manager at the time) and she said yes. When I came to interview it was clear that I was interviewing for the job of one of the people who were interviewing me. Everyone seemed to love me except for this person, who told me they don't hire managers and that I would have to report to him. He was very junior to me and seemed to only want to keep his title/piece of the kingdom. It was obvious I didn't want to be a part of that, so I declined the offer and not only was the person gone a few weeks later, they were gone from their next job a few months after that. There's some serious political stuff going on at Uber.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#849
post #15

In case anyone isn't sure why the original interaction is harassment: relationships within a reporting chain are generally prohibited, for both legal, ethical, and practical reasons. Sex becoming part of the effective job description crosses both legal and ethical lines, and team effectiveness is hindered when people wonder whether someone is getting special treatment because they're sleeping with the boss. A manager…

I don't understand how anyone could be unsure about that being harassment. It's about as clear-cut as you can get. He should have been fired the day that surfaced. If someone who worked for me ever did something like that, they'd be out the door pronto. It speaks volumes that he wasn't, to the point which I am irrationally tempted to doubt the veracity of her claims. Don't proposition anyone in your reporting chain.…

It's hard to just ignore feelings. You'll have biases. It'll show. (Eventually.)

Talk to HR (or your boss), get them (or you) a new team/manager.

Or if the feelings go away, then great, crisis averted, but it's rarely that simple.

Re: Reflecting on one very, very strange year at Uber

#850
post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because challenging someone to "justify" why they feel sexually harassed is inappropriate?

Yes, that's my feeling too. It's inappropriate to even wonder if the person complaining was in fact harassed . And that leads to a country where every manager is absolutely terrified to be accused because they know they'll be automatically guilty. In the OP case, the manager clearly behaved completely foolishly, but i have actually met people in some offices that were into open relationships, and talked extremely fre…

> i have actually met people in some offices that were into open relationships, and talked extremely freely about sex, just like any other subject

1. He was propositioning her; not just "initiating a topic".

2. That person was her manager, which changes the picture altogether (see this comment by 'calcsam: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13682117)

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