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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#841

Post by djhn »

derefr wrote: post #764
tptacek wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

There is a long track record and large body of research on this topic in economics, and there's no need to reinvent the wheel as the results are well known and largely uncontroversial. TL;DR: Money outperforms vouchers and stamps.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#842

Post by DrScump »

steve-howard wrote: post #705
throwawaytime wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When the cost of [a car] repair was increased to $3,000, the cognitive performance of those at the upper end of the income distribution was unaffected by the increase. But those at the lower end suffered a 40% decline! The authors interpreted this to mean that scarcity impaired people’s ability to think clearly. The threat—even an imagined threat—of a large bill made it difficult for poor people to focus on the cogn…

I have chronic fatigue that, until treated, was quite disabling. I have some other more private health concerns that add up to about twice my rent. If you have a chronic health condition, access to health care is a major and fundamental concern: I just left a job that was killing me, and am temporarily unemployed, and COBRA with a $500 premium is my cheapest option by far. If I hadn't spent the last year saving as mu…

Why isn't buying a subsidized ACA policy an option?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#843

Post by ascorbic »

marknutter wrote: post #509
ascorbic wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money for the basic income comes from taxation. Even though everyone would get it, higher tax rates on people with middle or high incomes would mean they were no better off, or worse off. This isn't supposed to be a way to make everyone $x per month better off, it's a way to change incentives and replace welfare.

What I'm curious about is what's stopping a large portion of the population from simply quitting their jobs to live off basic income, thus decreasing the potential pool from which taxes to pay for basic income can be extracted? If it really worked out like you say it would, where people with middle or high incomes are no better off, I wonder what they would think when suddenly large swathes of the population are able…

If someone is willing to do this, they are likely to be people who currently are on low incomes and thus unlikely to be paying much tax if any. I think it would have the opposite effect though. In most countries, the welfare system harshly punishes people who do a small amount of work, withdrawing benefit at a very high marginal rate. This is a massive disincentive to finding work. With a basic income, people can for example do voluntary work. People on sickness benefit can gradually try to go back into work, doing a few hours per week. If you can top up your income without being penalised for it I reckon quite a lot of people currently on welfare would start working a little.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#844

Post by tim333 »

irishcoffee wrote: post #778

So, I'm sure this will get buried, but in the hopeful event of responses: How does this prevent people from spending up to their means? People who make 20k, spend to their means. People who make 50k, spend to their means. People who make 100k, spend to their means. People who make 452k, spend to their means. This is a sincere, non-snark question: people spend to their means. It's similar to packing a bag, a person ha…

I'm not sure what needs fixing. People spend what they earn. What's the big problem?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#845

Post by DrScump »

tptacek wrote: post #458
panglott wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but all of those sound like things that are going to help people who were already going to be successful to be even more successful. College debt, for example, is a problem for those who were successful enough to get into college into the first place, and who, simply by getting into college, are already increasing their lifetime earnings by millions of dollars. Technological services for K-12 ed is pushing a s…

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

Why do you equate poverty with inevitable entanglements with the law?

In my experience, those of us who had to work (formally employed) young are less likely to have entanglements with the law, as one natural result of spending time working is having less idle time in which to get into trouble.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#846

Post by ollifi »

andrewjl wrote: post #783
tptacek wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

I have a theory that making education free and universally accessible, meaning anyone who is willing to put in the time can get a bachelor's degree in any major they want, would remove the majority of the signaling effect that a 4 year degree has. There would still be some signaling from holders of elite college degrees, but I argue that it is a separate problem. I do agree with you in principle about the HR director…

Coming from a place with free university education I don't think that is right. More accessible university education, more people get university education, this raises the bar in all fields.

HR still prefers somebody who went through the trouble of getting the paper as it signals putting the effort in.

Now many jobs that previosly didn't need university education have such applicants and it becomes more mandatory to get one in order to compete. And why would you not, it is free after all.

In the end more people get higher education. it won't necessary help you getting a better job but I think it is good for society anyway.

For many others this "useless over education" is one of the reasons to introduce fees to schools. To make vocational studies worth more again and force people to think education more like an investment.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#848

Post by nvision »

Fascinating topic. I can see why it is popular.

1. basic income implies that there is a fixed minimum cost for comfortable survival. Does it require organic food? Does it require clean air? Does it require etiquette training? Does it adjust for localized prices? Does it include a vehicle, video games, and gadgets?

2. a simple analogy to zoo kept animals comes to mind. The more detached from the holistic view of nature and the cosmos humans get, the worse off we become. Why? because everything IS connected.

3. Money is a flawed system because you are equating material goods to non-material concepts. It will never balance out. Not even with gold.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#849

Post by deepGem »

One area that can be improved by startups without the need for enormous entitlement spending is food. I don't mean the radical notion of liquid food or pill popping (though that day might arrive sooner than later) or even manufactured food. I'm talking about employing simple robotics to reduce the cost of farm labor. Tasks such as cutting the paddy crop. All these years, plants have been engineered to suit the machines and that has reduced farming costs. However, these machines are expensive and work only on very large farms. If we engineer machines to suit the plants growth, we can achieve a dramatic cut in costs as these machines or robots won't need scale. By scale, I mean you won't need a 100 acre farm to use one. Even a small farmer can rent a robot to maintain his 2 acre farm and produce food at a very low cost. Couple this with the dramatic reduction in transport which will be brought about by electric and self driving trucks - we are looking at food that will cost next to nothing in the next 20-30 years.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#850

Post by inlined »

derefr wrote: post #764
tptacek wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

Doesn't this just set up a complex laundering scheme? Safeway can accept necessity dollars and cash them in for nicety dollars at 1:1. A startup wants to sell their new gadget which isn't approved for nicety dollars. They accept nicety dollars anyway and pay Safeway 1.1:1 to be a back door exchange.
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