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Your phone is about to stop being yours

keepandroidopen.org

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Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#831

Post by fooqux »

palata wrote: post #819
echelon wrote: post #810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When we buy an Android device, we should be able to install an alternative OS That's not freedom for the world. That's freedom for you and ten people. The bigger thing to fight for is removing Apple and Android's power over what happens post-sale. And that can include your demand, but it also includes a whole hell of a lot more about vanilla/stock Android/iOS.

Only because you don't know what those alternatives are. I can take a random person in the street, show them my /e/OS or GrapheneOS phone and ask them what it is running. They will 100% say Android. I can ask them to use it for 10min (write messages, open the browser, swipe TikTok) and they will never realise that it is not running "the Android signed by Google". It is so, so close to the Android signed by Google tha…

This is an idealism vs realism fight. You're both right in that you're both fighting for the end user to have ultimate control of their device.

However, there's a major caveat here. Google's play protect prevents me from using some apps on my phone running graphene. My banking app is one of them. Yes I know there's technical workarounds. Yes I know they have a website (for now). But the point is, this is the direction stuff is moving. Fully signed devices from power-on through the entire stack and a flag that warns software if that breaks. Yes, it's a win for security. But I have zero control. Google has all the keys to all the doors and graphene can't do anything about it. Nor can I. And Google has very little incentive to change this.

I fear this is the direction things are moving to. Phones will be tied to our identity. Web will be depreciated as a security risk. Only one of the two options you two are fighting over fixes this: power must be taken from these mega corporations.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#832

Post by LocalH »

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #443
shafoshaf wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that is sarcasm, but a chair I buy is mine to do whatever I want with it. Same goes for clothes, a mattress, paint, or any other non-software enabled physical item. Why does having software/hardware make a difference?

You can do whatever you want with your phone too, it isn’t illegal to jailbreak an iPhone for example.

That scene is dying a boiling-frog death. The newest OS that is fully jailbreakable on a sufficiently-modern arm64e device is 16.5.1 (go back a few models to the iPhone X and the current Dopamine beta works up to 16.7.15). There is also a "semi-jailbreak" called nathanlr, which is less full featured and works up to iOS 17.0 on iPhone 15 and prior. There's also TrollStore which isn't a jailbreak, but allows unlimited sideloading with arbitrary entitlements. This tool only functions on the following versions of iOS: 14.0 beta 2 - 16.6.1, 16.7 RC (20H18), 17.0

These OS versions are getting long in the tooth, and apps are already starting to drop support for them.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#833

Post by Andromxda »

fsflover wrote: post #721
gonzalohm wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Linux for phones a thing? Or are you referring to GrapheneOS or LineageOS?

GNU/Linux phones exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinephone

They're insecure [1] and far from usable.

[1] https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#834

Post by Andromxda »

kuhsaft wrote: post #828
classified wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom for users was the motivating factor that created open source in the first place. Rewriting history to serve your own ends doesn't help your credibility.

I don’t know what you’re going on about “rewriting history”. I never mentioned the history of open source. From the Open Handset Alliance: “The Android platform will be made available under one of the most progressive, developer-friendly open-source licenses, which gives mobile operators and device manufacturers significant freedom and flexibility to design products.” Give mobile operators and device manufacturers fr…

That's perhaps because typical consumers don't build their own operating systems?

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#835

Post by Andromxda »

fsflover wrote: post #410
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #298

WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? This is the question this website should be answering. Signing petitions is all well and good, but I want to vote with my wallet. WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY??? One thing I will do in the future is buy a nifty Motorola / GrapheneOS collab phone, but I can't do that yet. So for now: WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? It is literally amazing to me that people aren't giving this as an option on such social…

> WHERE DO I SEND MY MONEY? Good question. Here you go: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5

If you want an outdated, insecure, and extremely overpriced phone, sure, go ahead.

It's literally 2018 hardware being sold for 800 bucks. 3 GB of RAM? Seriously? The iPhone XS, also from 2018, has 4 GB of RAM, just saying.

And regarding the security: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#836

Post by Andromxda »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #208
drnick1 wrote: post #8

I don't care, I run Graphene, and my phone is definitely mine. Most Android apps just work, and the ones that don't are the kind of malware I am happy to do without.

How can you trust graphene or it's contributors and supply chain?

It's open source [1], and they're pretty transparent about everything. You can ask the devs anything, and they will probably give you a really useful and informative answer. They have extensive documentation, and they're pretty open, even about stuff like their servers [2], configurations [3], everything.

[1] https://grapheneos.org/source

[2] https://grapheneos.org/articles/grapheneos-servers

[3] https://github.com/GrapheneOS/infrastructure

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#837

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

palata wrote: post #732

Respectfully, I think this is the wrong fight. And I fear it may be counter-productive, because all the effort put into asking Google to make it a little less painful to install an unverified app is not put into the real fight. IMHO, it should be fine for Google or Apple to do whatever they want with their OS. What should be forbidden is to prevent people from installing an alternative OS on their hardware. But this…

"But this is not all Google's doing there: all the Android manufacturers are actively preventing users from doing it."

Google is (a) restricting "Android" functionality through trademark and software licenses with manufacturers and (b) paying the manufacturers, e.g., through placement agreements and revenue sharing agreements

Given Google's actions in this regard, why would a manufacturer want to allow hardware purchasers to remove Android and install an OS of their own choosing, e.g., one that does not enable Google data collection, surveillance and ad services and generates no revenue for the manufacturer

The idea of regulating manufacturers that partner with Google seems far-fetched, not serious. For example, I don't see HN comments suggesting Apple should be prohibited from interfering with buyers who want to remove iOS and install another OS in its place

Meanwhile the control, privacy, etc. problems with these corporate OS are avoidable right now by choosing different hardware, specifically hardware that allows installation of open source OS that a concerned buyer can edit, compile and install themselves

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#838

Post by Andromxda »

mmooss wrote: post #32
drnick1 wrote: post #8

I don't care, I run Graphene, and my phone is definitely mine. Most Android apps just work, and the ones that don't are the kind of malware I am happy to do without.

Google could lock out Graphene too, whenever they like, with no warning. I hope Graphene has a plan.

They're partnering with Motorola to build devices with official GrapheneOS support. https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116159602850585685

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#839

Post by palata »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #837
palata wrote: post #732

Respectfully, I think this is the wrong fight. And I fear it may be counter-productive, because all the effort put into asking Google to make it a little less painful to install an unverified app is not put into the real fight. IMHO, it should be fine for Google or Apple to do whatever they want with their OS. What should be forbidden is to prevent people from installing an alternative OS on their hardware. But this…

"But this is not all Google's doing there: all the Android manufacturers are actively preventing users from doing it." Google is (a) restricting "Android" functionality through trademark and software licenses with manufacturers and (b) paying the manufacturers, e.g., through placement agreements and revenue sharing agreements Given Google's actions in this regard, why would a manufacturer want to allow hardware purch…

Not sure what you are trying to say. My point is that technically, we have good alternatives. I am not talking Mobile Linux: we have Android alternatives that are indistinguishable from Stock Android to normal people... except for a few pain points.

We need to fight to address those pain points, in order to have good alternatives. What this article is trying to do is not trying to address those pain points at all, it's trying to change something in the Google flavour of Android. At the end of the day, it will still be the Google flavour of Android.

> why would a manufacturer

That's why I say we need to fight for regulating it. Technically, nothing prevents it. It's just that the manufacturers don't want or don't care. And it's not just manufacturers: banks that ban your OS if it's not "the Android signed by Google" are part of the problem as well, and we need to regulate that.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#840

Post by palata »

fooqux wrote: post #831
palata wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because you don't know what those alternatives are. I can take a random person in the street, show them my /e/OS or GrapheneOS phone and ask them what it is running. They will 100% say Android. I can ask them to use it for 10min (write messages, open the browser, swipe TikTok) and they will never realise that it is not running "the Android signed by Google". It is so, so close to the Android signed by Google tha…

This is an idealism vs realism fight. You're both right in that you're both fighting for the end user to have ultimate control of their device. However, there's a major caveat here. Google's play protect prevents me from using some apps on my phone running graphene. My banking app is one of them. Yes I know there's technical workarounds. Yes I know they have a website (for now). But the point is, this is the directio…

> Google's play protect prevents me from using some apps on my phone running graphene. My banking app is one of them.

Well, your bank is the one choosing to prevent your from running it on GrapheneOS. That's my whole point again! We need to regulate that: it should be forbidden to ban alternative OSes!

Now complaining about the fact that side-loading will require a ONE TIME, "annoying" procedure is not helping this AT ALL. It's just "oh no, I could do it with one click, and now I have to do it in 9 clicks, that's terrible, we need to bring it back to 2 clicks because anyway we won't win if we hope to bring it back to 1 click".

I'm exaggerating of course, it is a big problem for e.g. F-Droid (and maybe others?). But my point is that it's just cosmetic, it's not helping the cause. It's not moving us one inch closer to a better world. On the contrary: it's monopolising the attention of policymakers. They already don't understand much, and we flood them with complaints they don't understand (because really, 99.99% of the Android users don't give a shit about side loading, why would the policymakers care?).

The solution is simple: make it mandatory to allow alternative OSes (which is pretty much as simple as making it mandatory to unlock/relock the bootloader, and maybe remove a few other barriers that exist just for locking us in) and making it illegal to ban alternative OSes with Play Integrity (which is what banks are doing). That's all. No need to fight every decision Google makes and still lose every single time.

We need to get our act together and get the policymakers to do the right thing. But to be fair to the policymakers, technical people on the internet are asking for everything and its contrary.

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