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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#831

Post by mrugge »

RamtinJ95 wrote: post #823
liampulles wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Python has a place in many developers toolkits. I've never met anyone who hates Python (though I'm sure they exist), whereas for pretty much any other language one could mention there are much more polarizing viewpoints. (as the saying goes "Python is everyone's second favorite programming language"). The Python team needs not feel any pressure to change to compete, Python has already done quite well and foun…

I hate python and I use it everyday because I work in the data space. Its a toy scripting / glue language that has gotten used for far too much that it was not designed for. The usual suspects are also really annoying, such as white space instead of {}, no types, its so damn slow and all projects use so many packages and the packages use packages etc. That last one could just be a personal preference thing to I will…

usually packages use packages in any worthwhile language with useful packages and desire for code reuse...

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#832

Post by ogogmad »

callamdelaney wrote: post #727
miki123211 wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we had a language that had the syntax of Python (notably including operator overloading, which is absolutely critical for neural networks, ML, data science and numerical computations), the performance, compile times and concurrency support of Go, the type system flexibility of Typescript, and the native platform integration of C/C++.

Why would operator overloading be absolutely critical? Just use methods. The pipe operator already has around 15 uses and counting, it doesn’t need more

Instead of writing 2+2, you're suggesting writing 2.plus(2) or plus(2,2).

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#833

Post by x187463 »

pjc50 wrote: post #814
rjzzleep wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one that's sad that poetry happened before pdm otherwise we might have had pdm as a standard instead of uv, addressing many of the things uv addresses without all the extra bells and whistles that make it cumbersome. I don't like the wedding between package manager and install manager. ... but then again neither pdm nor uv would have happened without poetry.

What is the distinction between "package manager and install manager"?

One installs Python packages into a Python installation and the other manages Python installations.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#835

Post by beeforpork »

liampulles wrote: post #784
ederamen wrote: post #517

Uv is so good. I'm a curmudgeon about adopting new tooling, and tried uv with a lot of skepticism, but it was just better in every way. And even if it wasn't so polished and reliable, the raw speed makes it hard to go back to any other tool. Uv combined with type hints reaching critical mass in the Python ecosystem, and how solid PyLance is in VSCode, feels so good it has made me consider investing in Python as my pr…

I think Python has a place in many developers toolkits. I've never met anyone who hates Python (though I'm sure they exist), whereas for pretty much any other language one could mention there are much more polarizing viewpoints. (as the saying goes "Python is everyone's second favorite programming language"). The Python team needs not feel any pressure to change to compete, Python has already done quite well and foun…

Well, I hate Python. Main points for me: the scoping (or lack of it), the lack of declaration of new identifiers (linked to lack of scoping), the lack of update operators (like `a ||= (i > 0)`), the general lack of conciseness, the `a if b else c` confusion, the weirdness of comprehensions (particularly nested `for`s), the exceptions that are raised for non-exceptional cases. The heaviness of handling exception, like trying to delete a non-existing dict entry (need an additional `if` or a `try` block) or access a non-existing map entry (need to use `.get()` instead of `[]` or a `try` block).

Also, the syntax of layout is bad. I am not talking about layout itself, I do like Haskell syntax (despite being weird about parens). But if I write `a = b +` in Python on one line, then I get a syntax error, although the parser could instead assume that the expression is not terminated and must (obviously) continue on the next (indented) line. I hate that I need to use `\` or `(...)` to make this clear to the parser. I wrote parsers myself, and I know that it knows what needs to follow, and Python itself shows me that it knows: by raising a completely unnecessary syntax error.

It feels to me that the Python language design confuses `simple and easy` with `primitive`. If feels like a design without the knowledge of programming language research and ergonomy. It feels to me like a dangerous toy language, and I am never sure which of my stupid mistakes will be found by the compiler/interpreter, and which will just silently misinterpreted. And which of my perfectly valid requests will be rejected with an exception. In some aspects it feels less safe than C, particularly due to the lack of scoping and the danger of reuse of variables or introduction of new function local variables when actually, outer 'scope' variables were intended to be written.

This is not really meant as a rant, but it is a personal opinion, and I try to lay out my reasons. I am not trying to shame anyone who loves Python, but I just want to clarify that there are people who hate Python.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#836

Post by agrounds »

zahlman wrote: post #95
aerhardt wrote: post #26

I'm surprised by how much I prefer prepending "uv" to everything instead of activating environments - which is still naturally an option if that's what floats your boat. I also like how you can manage Python versions very easily with it. Everything feels very "batteries-included" and yet local to the project. I still haven't used it long enough to tell whether it avoids the inevitable bi-yearly "debug a Python enviro…

> how much I prefer prepending "uv" to everything instead of activating environments You can also prepend the path to the virtual environment's bin/ (or Scripts/ on Windows). Literally all that "activating an environment" does is to manipulate a few environment variables. Generally, it puts the aforementioned directory on the path, sets $VIRTUAL_ENV to the venv root, configures the prompt (on my system that means mod…

>> I also like how you can manage Python versions very easily with it. > > I still don't understand why people value this so highly, but so it goes.

Well I do need some way to install multiple python versions in parallel, and ideally the correct python version would be used in each project automatically. I used to use pyenv for this, which puts shims in your path so that it can determine which python executable to run on the fly, but I found that it was sometimes very slow, and it didn’t work seamlessly with other tools. Specifically pipenv seemed to ignore it, so I’d have to use a workaround to point pipenv to the path to the pyenv-installed python executable.

When one tool does both python installs and dependency/venv management, then it can make these work seamlessly together, and I don’t need to screw up my path to make the version selection work either.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#837

Post by CamouflagedKiwi »

Jaxkr wrote: post #520
ederamen wrote: post #517

Uv is so good. I'm a curmudgeon about adopting new tooling, and tried uv with a lot of skepticism, but it was just better in every way. And even if it wasn't so polished and reliable, the raw speed makes it hard to go back to any other tool. Uv combined with type hints reaching critical mass in the Python ecosystem, and how solid PyLance is in VSCode, feels so good it has made me consider investing in Python as my pr…

On performance: 3.13 removed the GIL and added experimental first-party JIT (like PyPy). In two years I bet we’ll be seeing v8 level performance out of CPython.

It didn't "remove the GIL". It added an experimental free-threading mode which removes it, but is still considered experimental and not widely used in production yet.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#838

Post by [deleted] »

ederamen wrote: post #517

Uv is so good. I'm a curmudgeon about adopting new tooling, and tried uv with a lot of skepticism, but it was just better in every way. And even if it wasn't so polished and reliable, the raw speed makes it hard to go back to any other tool. Uv combined with type hints reaching critical mass in the Python ecosystem, and how solid PyLance is in VSCode, feels so good it has made me consider investing in Python as my pr…

[deleted]

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#839

Post by intrasight »

liampulles wrote: post #784
ederamen wrote: post #517

Uv is so good. I'm a curmudgeon about adopting new tooling, and tried uv with a lot of skepticism, but it was just better in every way. And even if it wasn't so polished and reliable, the raw speed makes it hard to go back to any other tool. Uv combined with type hints reaching critical mass in the Python ecosystem, and how solid PyLance is in VSCode, feels so good it has made me consider investing in Python as my pr…

I think Python has a place in many developers toolkits. I've never met anyone who hates Python (though I'm sure they exist), whereas for pretty much any other language one could mention there are much more polarizing viewpoints. (as the saying goes "Python is everyone's second favorite programming language"). The Python team needs not feel any pressure to change to compete, Python has already done quite well and foun…

I've been mostly not using Python since it's arrival in the early 90s. Meaning I tinker with it but don't use it professionally.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#840

Post by hexbin010 »

I predict it'll be the best and then the 'worst' thing: they'll go hard on monetisation.

Just look at this post: 1839 points and 1048 comments! That is insane. It's captured the hearts and minds of Python devs and I'm sure they know it.

I'm not against projects making money, just remember you'll likely pay a price later on once you invest in more of Astral's ecosystem. It's just temporarily free.

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