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Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

theguardian.com

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Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#831

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is indeed a big obstacle to credibly calling the Israel-Palestine conflict a genocide. Germany lost ~10% of it's population in WW2. France lost 4% in WW1. Less than 1% of the Palestinian has been killed since Oct 7. Heck, the US Revolutionary war saw the British perpetrated genocide against the Colonists if the military actions following Oct 7 count as a genocide.

> Germany lost ~10% of it's population in WW2. 75% of those were military deaths, 25% civilian deaths. In Gaza the numbers are switched.

Even if the numbers are true, that leaves Germany with 2x the proportion of civilian deaths.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is obvious that Israel is committing genocide. They don't even try to hide it! Indeed they revel in their cruelty. [1] This historian[2] argues that openly committing genocide is a feature, not a bug, because it will lead to anti-semitism that will make diaspora Jews feel unsafe and bind them to Israel. [1] https://www.thecanary.co/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/snapins-... [2] https://youtu.be/sS9xidsyxXY?t=330

There is no doubt that people are suffering. But trying to pin that on Israel is only prolonging their suffering. Let me ask you, who benefits from Palestinians dying? Or did you think that Hamas care about the Palestinian people. They do not - they care only about the Palestinian state.

> Let me ask you, who benefits from Palestinians dying?

Israel does. There's no need for a two state solution, the project of Greater Israel can be accomplished if they just kill anyone who they aren't able to forcibly expel from the land.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#833
post #806
post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so weird how people think the casualty rate in Gaza is high, it's actually incredibly low, virtually no other army in the world could achieve such a low collateral damage rate in urban warfare against guerillas.

The killings are not only direct hits with bullets. They are also blocking food, medicine and healthcare. Noone can survive without food. The goal is not to kill hamas, that was just the excuse, it is to clear the ground for new settlements.

I think the total reported deaths from food issues - as reported by Hamas mind you - are in the 1,000 range. Which is still a very small number for a war zone.

> The goal is not to kill hamas, that was just the excuse, it is to clear the ground for new settlements.

Israel has explicitly stated that this is NOT the goal, are you in a position to change their policy or something? I don't get how you think you can determine their goals for them, unless you are a member of their government (are you?).

Your stated goal doesn't even make any sense - why would they even need to "clear ground" in the first place? Just go live in those houses. And if you mean "kill people", then why are the deaths so low?

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless, the death toll in gaza (somewhere between 45,000 and 600,000) suggests that this mass surveillance isn’t being used effectively to reduce the death toll. Keep in mind deaths published by the Gaza(Hamas) ministry of health do not differentiate civilian vs combatant deaths at all.

That’s true, but of the 65,063 deaths reported by the GHM, at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers. And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble. Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estima…

> at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers

From my understanding GHM numbers don't break these figures for those that are combatants either, the population overall is quite young and Hamas is known to use child soldiers as well. Journalists(along with doctors) in Gaza have even been themselves involved in holding hostages for Hamas[0]. There are many issues like this which significantly complicate separating combatant deaths from non-combatant deaths.

> And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble.

The 65k is AFAIU not even advertised by the GHM as confirmed deaths(i.e. deaths with confirmed identities), it's an estimate from an organization(Hamas) which is highly incentivized to report the highest figures that are believable internationally. There are not any incentives for them to underestimate casualties since they use casualties figures for propaganda purposes and will use the highest figures they can come up with while maintaining some level of credibility.

It's also unlikely there are many deaths that can be attributed directly to starvation, while there may be food insecurity issues there is still sufficient aid reaching Gaza to largely prevent deaths from starvation. There are countries in the world where there is actual famine and pictures/videos from those places(i.e. those taken out in the open on the streets) look nothing like those from Gaza. Even organizations like the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs have been known to put out(and subsequently walk back) blatantly false information[1] to make it appear the situation is worse than it actually is.

> Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estimate of how many may have been killed directly and indirectly by this genocidal war.

Numbers 10x those put out by the GHM(which is already highly incentivized to inflate casualty figures) are not remotely credible.

IMO the figures put out by the GHM are likely within the correct order of magnitude, keeping in mind that those figures include combatant deaths. For a conflict like this which involves urban warfare(where similar conflicts historically have had very high casualties) such casualty figures certainly don't appear to be unusually high.

Claims of genocide made against Israel simply do not stand up to scrutiny. Civilian deaths are largely in line with what would expect for a war like this, especially one where enemy combatants are not in uniform and intentionally hide amongst the civilian population and fight from civilian areas(which is of course a war crime). There are strong incentives both internationally and domestically for Israel to minimize civilian casualties as much as feasible.

If intelligence from surveillance increases combatant deaths then it could be expected that the death figures like those from the GHM(which include combatant deaths) may rise even if the actual civilian casualty rate decreases.

[0] https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/19/middleeast/gaza-neighborhood-...

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-mistak...

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s literally the same numbers as the posted ones, and exactly aligned with what I’m saying. > The current official toll is 64,718 Palestinians killed in Gaza and 163,859 injured, since the start of the war on 7 October 2023 You may have been misled by the headline “X killed or injured”.. those are two different things, and we’re talking about the number killed. I don’t know if those numbers are accurate (the articl…

Nice cherry-picking > Halevi stepped down as chief of staff in March after leading the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for the first 17 months of the war, which is now approaching its second anniversary. > The retired general told a community meeting in southern Israel earlier this week that more than 10% of Gaza’s 2.2 million population had been killed or injured – “more than 200,000 people”. The point is that we know 6…

You are using the "more than 200,000 people" quote to imply that the GHM estimate of 64,718 is wrong, but it is completely in line with it. There is nothing about this revelation that suggests the existing estimates are too low. I don't know what I'm supposedly cherry-picking.

More explicitly: 64,718 killed + 163,859 injured =~ "more than 200,000 people"

I don't understand what basis you (and other commenters) have to suggest that these estimates are all wrong, you merely say "we have good reason". What reason?

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think her statements aren’t even factual: the current estimates aren’t the confirmed identities, they include estimates for missing and presumed dead. You don’t think the GHM would publish larger estimates if 1/3 of every living person in Gaza was missing or dead? It’s hard to have an objective conversation when numbers are just made up.

I am not asserting a specific number. There have been between 65,000 and 680,000 gazans murdered by the idf directly and indirectly. I think it’s unlikely the number is as high as 680k, but there is absolute chaos on the ground, doctors and hospitals and records destroyed. We won’t know until the slaughter stops what number is real. If you want to let the lack of a specific number hold you up while the killing contin…

I mean sure, you are just asserting a range. It is also true that there have been between 0 and 2,000,000 gazans killed by the IDF, but this fact does not do anything useful in discussing the issue. (And just like the 680,000 gazans "murdered by the IDF" it is nearly impossible to be accurate, fabrication because it defies reality.)

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#838
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their source for deaths in Gaza is "CNN via IDF" but reading that article, it's actually an interview re: a specifically unconfirmed report from another news agency. Mixing that with data produced with very specific methodology, like they've done with the NIH data they're also using, seems like a bit of a faux pas. Reent, published, actual figures (instead of ambiguously attributed early ones) show that they'd be up…

the only thing that those numbers mean it's how many of dead combatants IDF can identify/name. if somebody killed holding RPG, he doesn't become civilian just because IDF doesn't know his name

Maybe that applied then but does it apply now? Each of their soldiers wear cameras. They see it in hd anytime their soldiers shooting women, old men, children. I guess only their snipers are getting away with dropping civilians constantly (as many British and American doctors are testifying they saw in gazan hospitals). And on top of this their drones target with visual data. So they see that too.

I think in this war the IDF has a very very good idea of how many civilians they killed. At some point it indicates that they have set targets they are striving to meet before the world stops them.

Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but of the 65,063 deaths reported by the GHM, at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers. And that 65k number does not include indirect deaths - i.e. deaths by starvation, or death from something that could have been easily survived if there were still hospitals instead of rubble. Which is where the 680,000 number comes from - the largest estima…

> at least 18,500 of them are children, 217 journalists, 120 academics, and 224 humanitarian aid workers From my understanding GHM numbers don't break these figures for those that are combatants either, the population overall is quite young and Hamas is known to use child soldiers as well. Journalists(along with doctors) in Gaza have even been themselves involved in holding hostages for Hamas[0]. There are many issue…

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Re: Microsoft blocks Israel’s use of its tech in mass surveillance of Palestinians

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to redefine genocide to mean "a very bad thing" then go ahead, but doing so would hollow out the term. There's nothing stopping people from discussing the events in Gaza as a tragedy and a war crime, but activists are intent on attaching the word genocide to this. Referring to it as a genocide has become a litmus test to be considered pro-Palestinian.

To be fair, the UN working group that declared it genocide was completely precise in how they defined it and the criteria they used. Totally fair to disagree either with the existence of that working group, their definition of genocide, or with the facts they cite as evidence, but to pretend it’s just a bunch internet activists playing rhetorical tricks is clearly subterfuge.

are you referring to "UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory"? Their report came out 10 days ago. This has been referred to as a genocide far longer than that
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